E85 stratification

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Kira

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Hello,
BACKGROUND: A friend told me E85 was going to be the norm. He also said gas with ethanol has all been E10 (10% ethanol) so far. He went on to shriek about inevitable stratification which would cause the ethanol to be pumped into the engine first, corroding everything, followed by the lousy gas which will detonate. The result is the automatic destruction of any engine made before 2012.

I have always thought he was susceptible to dire, end of the world news stories which dovetail perfectly with his "back-against-the-wall" attitude, but he's a nice guy.

I don't know about the E85 issue.

QUESTIONS: Would a shot of MMO help keep the ethanol and gas mixed?
Would normal driving keep the fuel mixed? Thanks, Kira
 
1) E85 will not likely be 'the norm' anytime soon if ever. Certainly not until a majority of vehicles are made to be compatible. Look around: how many 'Flex Fuel' badged vehicles with yellow gasoline caps do you actually see on the road? Not a majority even of new cars, let alone making a majority of the "in service" fleet.

2) Ethanol and gas don't try to separate anyway. The thing about ethanol is that it dissolves in (is miscible with, to use the correct term for liquids) both water and gasoline. So much so that as an additive it keeps the water mixed with fuel, which is why it (or methanol which behaves the same in this regard) has been used in 'dry gas' products for decades.

MMO will have absolutely no effect on "stratification" of E85 (because no such thing exists), but it can't hurt to have a little extra lubricity for fuel pumps and injectors, which E85 lacks. Flex Fuel vehicles have parts made to deal with the low lubricity, but as I said it doesn't hurt to have a little extra.
 
Brazil is pretty much all E85 for the last few years. If you look at any recent maps it's completely slid off into the ocean... well... what was left after the hurricanes and locusts pretty much destroyed everything.
 
Butanol is the future...

Like 95% gasoline, runs in a regular gas engine without modifications.

To run E85 in an engine, it must be a modified regular, longer dwell times on the fuel injectors,
Or built as a flex fuel.

Created from anaerobic digestion of sewage by algea...
Also eats CO2 as a by-process...
 
Maybe your friend was thinking about ether. When I was a kid, some would buy a bottle of ether at the pharmacy and dump it in their gas tank. I don't think it mixed well with gas. It seemed to hit the engine all at once and pass quickly. I never tried it.

Or maybe, your friend needs to breathe some ether.
 
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Brazil makes Ethanol from cane sugar waste (stalks).

Hence it's super cheap for them...


It's actually sugar cane, not sugar cane waste. The stalks contain all the sugars and juices, which are extracted to make ethanol. The waste (bagasse) is typically burned to produce power for the plant. I've also heard of several plants down there have the capacity to either produce sugar or ethanol, depending on the economics of both.

It's super cheap because sugar cane is a much better source of sugars for ethanol than corn, and the Brazilian climate is perfect for growing sugar cane.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DoiInthanon
Maybe your friend was thinking about ether. When I was a kid, some would buy a bottle of ether at the pharmacy and dump it in their gas tank. I don't think it mixed well with gas. It seemed to hit the engine all at once and pass quickly. I never tried it.

Or maybe, your friend needs to breathe some ether.
I have only known ether to be in a gaseous form, usually sprayed in the intake of a diesel engine to help start it in the cold weather. Never heard of it in liquid form.
 
E85 may never be the norm here. Or, if it is, it will take decades. It has been around for a long time already and the uptake is still quite low, and with E85 costing MORE than premium where I live, it's going to be a tough sell to consumers.

What percentage of new vehicles sold in 2013 were flexible-fuel? Here's the list of US vehicles that can use it -- note how there are a lot of manufacturers with ZERO cars listed, such as Honda, and those that are on the list may only have one such engine (i.e. Focus only has the 2.0 non-turbo):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fu...e-fuel_vehicles
 
Yeah, now that I think of it, I have some of that engine starter stuff also. Now I wonder what it was they were putting in their cars back in the sixties. I'll be up all night. The obvious three of four I can think of to ask have all passed. So I am not in a hurry to ask them. The way this usually plays out:

I'll see someone that was involved. Then I'll go up to them and say, "I wanted to ask you sumpin". They, "Go ahead". Me, "Can't think of it right now". Them, "Me neither".
 
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Brazil makes Ethanol from cane sugar waste (stalks).

Hence it's super cheap for them...


Nope, they make the ethanol from the sugar CANE itself. Stalks would make methanol ("wood alcohol") if made into an alcohol directly- cellulose instead of sugars.

What Brazil was doing was to use the waste stalks as fuel for the distillation process, helping make the whole process net energy positive, which is still a subject of debate with corn as the feedstock and petroleum-derived hydrocarbons as the heat source for distillation. Of course pulp burning for heat creates a lot of emissions to clean up, so I'm not sure how far ahead they came out on the whole process.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
E85 may never be the norm here. Or, if it is, it will take decades. It has been around for a long time already and the uptake is still quite low, and with E85 costing MORE than premium where I live, it's going to be a tough sell to consumers.


The price differential here varies, but last week I noticed that E85 was $0.50 per gallon LESS than regular (E10) at the station where I can buy E85 (they also have one of the best prices on regular in the metro area). I ran the numbers a few years ago, and taking into account the decrease in fuel mileage on E85, the "break even" price differential for my Ram 1500 is when E85 is $0.30/gallon cheaper. At $.50 cheaper, E-85 is a screaming good deal, and needless to say the next time I fill it up it will be with E85 unless the gap has closed!
 
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
I have only known ether to be in a gaseous form, usually sprayed in the intake of a diesel engine to help start it in the cold weather. Never heard of it in liquid form.


It used to be quite the rage at parties to put liquid ether in a saucer and pass it around for people to sniff. Of course, that was in the 19th century ...

Liquid ether also used to be used as an anasthetic - it was poured onto a gauze mask held over the patient's mouth and nose. If too much was applied, the patient could suffer ether burns. Those present in the room could also be affected by the fumes.

Fun times!

thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Brazil makes Ethanol from cane sugar waste (stalks).

Hence it's super cheap for them...


Nope, they make the ethanol from the sugar CANE itself. Stalks would make methanol ("wood alcohol") if made into an alcohol directly- cellulose instead of sugars.

What Brazil was doing was to use the waste stalks as fuel for the distillation process, helping make the whole process net energy positive, which is still a subject of debate with corn as the feedstock and petroleum-derived hydrocarbons as the heat source for distillation. Of course pulp burning for heat creates a lot of emissions to clean up, so I'm not sure how far ahead they came out on the whole process.


Nice and concise summary...
 
Originally Posted By: mattwithcats
Butanol is the future...

Like 95% gasoline, runs in a regular gas engine without modifications.

To run E85 in an engine, it must be a modified regular, longer dwell times on the fuel injectors,
Or built as a flex fuel.

Created from anaerobic digestion of sewage by algea...
Also eats CO2 as a by-process...


Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner! Butanol is the next step the ethanol producers need to move to. It does not have all the down sides to ethanol and can be used in high levels in every gasoline engine. No need for "flex fuel" specifications.

I just wish the ethanol producers would start making moves to get the entire Butanol thing moving. Seem like they are just content to mark time.
 
The fact that your friend told you that E85 is going to be the norm is probably a good indication of your friends knowledge on this.
 
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