E-core (so much for all the testing)

Gary Allan · May 5, 2005

quote:

If the filter fails in 3K when a manufacturer calls for a 7500 mile oil change,the filter is not meeting the auto makers specs.

Can you tell me how many miles or months any of lubeowers filters went? He can't.

quote:

I have not read anywhere in this discussion where someone has implied that a filter should last when abused.

No, they haven't. No one appears to believe that such a condition can exist since all of the filters showing issues are absolutely the manufacturers fault. Abuse can't happen.

quote:

What is being said is that auto makers are requiring longer OCI's and therefor,filters
are supposed to meet these requirements.

Can you tell me which filters that lubeowner opened up and took pictures of are within any manufacturer's spec's for either time and/or mileage?

quote:

It seems evident that some filters are unable to do so.

Under what conditions?? Normal? Again, which filters that we've seen have been subjected to normal service? Can you pick them out??

quote:

Since the filters are not meeting these standards,they need to state such on the filter box.

How do you know they can't? Have you seen filters fail in normal service? Which one's are they out of those that lubeowner has shown us??

See what I mean?

Okay, guys...this isn't a point that anyone can see ..so I give. I just hope that some decent product ...or even your personal reputation never falls into the hands of attitudes like this. You would be toast on nothing but apparent and circumstantial evidence. This isn't to say that everything isn't as it appears to be ..but there is not one shred of desire to determine anything beyond it.

Mob think. You know what they say ...#@$% just ONE ..and you're a @@#%%^^## for life.

Ugly3 · May 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by TurboJim:

quote:

My 1998 Chrysler Town & Country Van has a recommended 15,000 mile filter change for normal service.

Click to expand...

How do they define "normal" service?

The standard not towing, not on dusty roads, not racing, etc.

Gary Allan · May 5, 2005

quote:

I don't see anyone here defending Fram. As for Champ, I have only cut open at most a dozen of them. However if they were the problem Lubeowner shows, you would think at least one of them would have been bad. Why should I switch to a more expensive filter to avoid problems I don't have?

Zactly! If I even saw ONE lame ST in my usage I would probably drop them like they had the plague. I haven't. I've used them on highway cruisers ..short trippers ...all for various lengths of time ..and if I had a "defective" one ..I should have hit one by now on 6 vehicles under my observation (2 with my son and 4 with me). Now most don't see mega mileage for OCI's ..but my wife's does.

On the matter of 15k OCI's recommended for some autos. Aside from Honda, with its recent 10k recommendation ..the only cars that I know of that have this spec are some Euros. If you look at some of the VW filter specs on Wix's site ..they aren't anything like a typical Napa Gold. They sport 30 lb bypass settings ..and therefore have a SUBSTANTIALLY more durable media to resist caving in with that PSID. They aren't the same animal. You've also got to consider that there are certain collisions in use. If you do 7500 a year (which would be atypical for a daily driver) would you, unless you're a total numbnut (or informed enough to make the intelligent decision) go ONE year when the manufacturer says that you're supposed to be going SIX MONTHS instead??? There is an implied service duty to each of those specs. Most of the service schedules that say "change the filter every other OCI" typically have an mileage component that implies radically lower cold start conditions that induce less insult to the filter.

Anyone that implys that typical neglect should be compansated for in increased quality of a product should also endorse smoking and fast food liability for the general population to bear the burden of the expense ..this is real life too ..but I don't see anyone blaming anyone but the individual for the consequences of their excesses. Here however, when it comes to oil filters ..we see some socialist attitude that all products must pass some "fool and his folly" test to be acceptable.

For those of the assumed capacity ..this only addresses dispositions and attitudes.

C4Dave · May 5, 2005

Gary,
Have you not looked at lubeowner's pictures in this link?He posted the mileage of several failures.

99 · May 6, 2005

So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so.

Gary Allan · May 6, 2005

quote:

Gary,
Have you not looked at lubeowner's pictures in this link?He posted the mileage of several failures.

quote:

these came off newer cars with low mileage. We rarely service cars over 6 years old and most are fewer that 4 yrs. old. Our shop is in an upper middle class area with lots of SUV's and higher end cars. We do get the occasional neglected sludgebucket as some of my pics have shown but all of the pics from yesterday were ODI's within the manufacturers suggested mileages.

No mileage or months there just the "suggested mileage" is mentioned ..suppose it was two years to get to that mileage

quote:

You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations.

I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight.

Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that?

BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel.

None there either..

quote:

for service, that I did check on. Remember, some manufacturers say 7500, or even 10,000, but most of the ones in the pics are 4-5K.

How many? How long?

This is what I asked:

quote:

Anyone can flame me all they want, I don't care.

I didn't detect any flame here [Confused] I'm glad that you're sharing this information ...but a few here have some more questions. You've got some serious conditions there that don't appear to occur on a regular (or even infrequent ..more like rarely) basis with the membership.

We're curious. This is unusual and we're the investigative type. There may be something more to the picture that isn't apparent on the surface. I can understand that you're busy. If you happen to take note to the car that a damaged filter came off ..and it is a regular ..and you happen to know the OCI and the time frame ...maybe you could share that with us as well. It would be a real help in nailing this down to a faulty filter ..or a faulty customer. [I dont know] Neither is a reflection upon you as a service provider. [Cheers!]

It would only take about 3 cars ..regular customers that he sees on a tri-monthly basis. Mark the filters with a magic marker with the months and miles ...cut them open ..check results.

That simple. (no, he's not obligated to do this ..but it's a lot less difficult than cutting open 300 filters). If these filters looked normal and were all clickers ..what would your opinion be? Suppose he expanded that to 20 cars ..all regulars ..all the months and miles fell into man specs ..and all were just fine ..what then? We don't know this stuff.

That simple.

But I'm tired of preceverating on this lack of further information. He's not obligated to provide it ..so ..no problem.

btw- I was asked for a filter recommendation by a lurker here on one of the other boards that I frequent. He had PureOne and regular Purolators and asked my opinion on them. I stated that they are fine filters and have a low reported incidence of defects. I also stated that I have used ST's from WallMart (Champ labs) and have had no problems with them and use them with confidence until I see evidence to alter my opinion of them. Others, however, have reported that they had issues with some of the low end Champion products ..so I won't recommend them.

Filter guy · May 6, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 99:
So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so.

No, but I offered lubeowner to cut open my E-core that's on the car now the end of september..but apparently he's busy.

A: I don't have a filter cutter.

B: I don't change my own oil.

So why would I want filters from lubeowner?
He claimed he sent filters in to his distributor so that they could look at them first before going back to Champ.

Any confirmation from lubeowner yet on their arrival? It's been two weeks or so since he made his statement.

John W. Colby · May 6, 2005

quote:

Why are "brand X" filters failing, and "brand y" not ? somehow, do these filters gravitate towards people who don't operate their vehicles in accordance with the filter manufacturer's specs ?

And that's what I come back to. No one had a problem castigating the Chevy Vega when it turned out to be a sh** car. No one had any specific info about it, no one knew what % failed, etc, but anyone with any sense eventually figured out not to buy them and the model died the death it deserved. Windows 95 was just a sucky product. No one can quantify how bad, but everyone who knows anything about it will tell you that it just sucked.

Often times there is no need for an exhaustive engineering analysis to say something sucks. Just observe the product in use and it rapidly becomes obvious that it sucks. Did EVERY Vega owner have problems? Of course not. Did EVERY Windows 95 owner have problems? Of course not. Yet common wisdom is that both those products sucked.

Now comes a similar situation, where a specific set of filter models fails excessively, and suddenly those castigating the model are implied to be idiots ready to lynch a perfectly good product with too little info.

Give me a break.

Specific models are failing in serious numbers where others just aren't failing. But hey, ... uh... maybe LubeOwner just happens to be handed the hundreds that failed and no other filters of that model are failing out there. Yea, that's the ticket!

Who's implying who is an idiot?

MAYBE some manufacturer is just cutting too many corners in an effort to produce a product at a specific price point (sounds like a Vega eh?) and MAYBE the result is a product that deserves to die a quick death.

lubeowner · May 6, 2005

Thank you JW, couldn't have said it better.

BTW JW,

Cut open a Casite filter today, said manufactured by Hastings on the side. The center tube has badly misaligned and appeared to be floating around. The media was not torn but very brittle to the touch.

Also cut open a PH400 with just under 4K on it. Came off a Ford Windstar. Five pleats had torn off top and bottom and were collapsed flat against the centertube. One pleat that I lifted up revealed a split from the top to the bottom.

A PH2808 Honda filter with 4500 miles had three pleats collapsed in the exact same way.

DoubleDee · May 6, 2005

lubeowner,

Are any of the defective filters you are seeing coming off of factory fills? I am assuming, based on various filter models, that not all defective filters are from fills that you have performed.

Gary Allan · May 6, 2005

quote:

So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so

Where have I stated that I doubt even ONE finding from lubeowner? I've only EVER stated that you have about as much analytical ability as anyone who believes the liberal media at face value for presented data. If I only show you blown up car wrecks in Iraq ..and don't index it with the full picture ...do you believe that it depicts the entire view in any realistic perspective??

If so, then I can totally understand all of your dispositions. I've never defended these filters, I've only questioned the basis on how anyone here has drawn conclusions.

quote:

Cut open a Casite filter today, said manufactured by Hastings on the side. The center tube has badly misaligned and appeared to be floating around. The media was not torn but very brittle to the touch.

So, if lubeowner only delt in Hastings ..and saw 1% defects in his use of them, you can add those to the list of filters not to use. Fram's already there. Let's see what happens in 6-9 months when the majority of Napa proline are cycled through his shop.

Then, like the herd of cattle that you appear to act like, you can avoid them too ..and on and on.

So far we have Fram, Champion (includes M1, Bosch, and others), and now Hastings (Amsoil, Baldwin). Just what are you gonna do after all of them are lumped in to the junk pile??

I always found "fads" in Japan so amusing ..acting as one mass of people ..but apparently I was just desensitized to the local background noise.

XS650 · May 6, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by lubeowner:
Thank you JW, couldn't have said it better.

BTW JW,

Cut open a Casite filter today, said manufactured by Hastings on the side. The center tube has badly misaligned and appeared to be floating around. The media was not torn but very brittle to the touch.

That rings a bell. Around a year ago there was a thread here about Hastings (IIRC) turning out a bunch if filters with center tubes that were too short. Supposidly they did no harm and the problem was supposed to have been corrected.

windcatcher · May 7, 2005

O.K. Gary us cattle will just use Purolater/wix etc and you and filter guy can use whatever pos floats your boat.Mike

XS650 · May 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

Gary,

Most here would not buy food service bacon either. It's not honey or maple cured and isn't the best tasting ..but a resturant owner that's slinging $0.99 breakfast specials to compete isn't going to go down the local grocery to buy the better stuff ..nor can he afford to be competitive using it in his business based on consumer demand for $0.99 breakfasts.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

When you buy a 99 cent breakfast special, you can reasonably expect cheap ingrediants.

Getting a defective element in a cheap filter isn't like getting a piece of cheap bacon with your breakfast instead of high quality bacon. It's like getting a dog turd instead of a sausage.

99 · May 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

quote:

Originally posted by 99:
So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so.

Click to expand...

No, but I offered lubeowner to cut open my E-core that's on the car now the end of september..but apparently he's busy.

A: I don't have a filter cutter.

B: I don't change my own oil.

So why would I want filters from lubeowner?
He claimed he sent filters in to his distributor so that they could look at them first before going back to Champ.

Any confirmation from lubeowner yet on their arrival? It's been two weeks or so since he made his statement.

I'm not on either side of the fence here. I use Motorcrafts and Purolators so what Champ does or doesn't do is of no importance to me. I'm just curious why people are throwing their opinions around and calling Lubeowner's pictures/statements bunk but nobody is actually analyzing the filter itself- cutting open one of Lubeowner's throwouts. I guess it's just easier to keep going back and forth over the internet than it is to actually put the product in your hands and examine it. No? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....it's a duck.

Filter guy · May 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 99:

quote:

Originally posted by Filter guy:

quote:

Originally posted by 99:
So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so.

Click to expand...

No, but I offered lubeowner to cut open my E-core that's on the car now the end of september..but apparently he's busy.

A: I don't have a filter cutter.

B: I don't change my own oil.

So why would I want filters from lubeowner?
He claimed he sent filters in to his distributor so that they could look at them first before going back to Champ.

Any confirmation from lubeowner yet on their arrival? It's been two weeks or so since he made his statement.

Click to expand...

I'm not on either side of the fence here. I use Motorcrafts and Purolators so what Champ does or doesn't do is of no importance to me. I'm just curious why people are throwing their opinions around and calling Lubeowner's pictures/statements bunk but nobody is actually analyzing the filter itself- cutting open one of Lubeowner's throwouts. I guess it's just easier to keep going back and forth over the internet than it is to actually put the product in your hands and examine it. No? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....it's a duck.

So if I send you a bunch of "defective" looking engine parts you can tell me why they are the way they are?

I didn't know so many people in these forums had tesing equipment so that they could run their own tests and see versus specs what and why a filter looks like it does.

Which is why....some of us have continually asked for the basic information about the pictures posted and why the request to send them back to a lab for analysis.

So far, as a recap, lubeowner has found 1 mismanufactured Champ and 1 mismanufactured Purolator filter.

The rest has been "speculation" about the end results of what is seen in a picture.

John W. Colby · May 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 99:
So not to mention names or anything...[cough]Gary and Filter Guy....[cough] have you personally cut open a used filter from Lubeowner yet? Didn't think so.

I have never heard Gary imply that LubeOwner was not presenting exactly what he sees, nor imply that he doesn't believe LubeOwner.

John W. Colby · May 7, 2005

quote:

...

The rest has been "speculation" about the end results of what is seen in a picture.

And it was speculation what was wrong with the Chevy Vega broken down along side the road as well. What was fact was that they were broken down.

I don't need to know what is wrong with them. Since there are other models not breaking down, I can (and do) just move on. In the end, what is wrong with them is that they are just too cheap to function well. I believe I have read even you admit that if the manufacturer spent a little more money on the filter this wouldn't be happening.

TurboJim · May 7, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 99:
I'm just curious why people are throwing their opinions around and calling Lubeowner's pictures/statements bunk but nobody is actually analyzing the filter itself- cutting open one of Lubeowner's throwouts. I guess it's just easier to keep going back and forth over the internet than it is to actually put the product in your hands and examine it. No? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck....it's a duck.

I for one would like to see what a sampling of Lubeowner's used filters might look like on Gary Allan's test equipment. If the filter media has seperated would his gauges reflect that? For the filter with media that hasn't seperated how often is the filter in bypass?

Beyond that send the filters that appear to have problems back to the manufacturer for further analysis. Then when we get the results back we can start the arguments all over again.....

lubeowner · May 7, 2005

Gary,

I was not trying to slam on Hastings. I think they are one of the best filters out there. But there is definitely a big quality difference in the Casite line. The media used was similar to what I am seeing in the low end Champions, very brittle after use. I don't know how long this filter was used but the oil was pretty dark colored. I am not implying to add and Hastings or Baldwin filter to a do not use list, just observing what I saw with one particular filter. Again, there was no actual torn media in the filter.

E-core (so much for all the testing)

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