E-10 Causes Sludge?

[Umibozu]

Originally Posted By: salv
E10 does cause sludge. Ethanol attracts water, so anywhere that gasoline goes, water goes too. Water is also a combustion byproduct of ethanol. When water gets mixed with motor oil under heat and pressure, it forms a sludgy, emulsified goo.
Ethanol has no benefit in motor oil other than operating as a fuel line antifreeze.
Anyone that tells you that it is a step closer to alternative fuels is wrong. Ethanol as a fuel is very inefficient, dirty burning, and very expensive to produce.
It is time to abandon ethanol entirely.


The corn lobbyist have a lot of power so that will never happen.

I'm converting my supra for e85, the other supra owners I know absolutely love it since it has a higher octane and you build boost quicker due to additional mass ( you have to burn about 30% more e85 when compared to gasoline for stoiciometric burn.

To the OP. I've never seen sludge issues with E10. The causes of sludge have a lot of variables...how one determines the cause of sludge directly attributed to E10 will be difficult.

 

[salv]

Ethanol does not remove water from the fuel system. It attracts the water in the fuel system. Water is then carried to the combustion chamber, where it interferes with proper fuel atomization and combustion, as does ethanol. Less complete combustion results in more deposits.
Ethanol releases less energy when burned. Therefore, more fuel is required to mix with the intake air in order to produce proper combustion. The result is a rich running condition that results in greater levels of deposits and higher levels of fuel dilution in the oil.
Ethanol does not completely combust. It leaves high levels of soot when burned. In all fairness, gasoline does too, but gasoline does it well enough on its own that ethanol is not needed to help it along.
Any additive in fuel that has such high concentrations should offer more benefit than cost. Ethanol does not do that. It does more to compromise the efficiency of the gasoline engine than anything else. Automobile engineers are not going to build motors and fuel systems for E-10, gasoline producers should be putting out a product that is more compatible with our vehicles.
The best way to save on gas costs and increase efficiency is to provide fuels that allow vehicles to run leaner. Ethanol encourages rich running, fuel dumping.

 

[Rickey]

I believe the topic was "E-10 Causes Sludge?"

Just my

Discounted to free because that's probably what it is worth.

Given that:

E-10 will introduce "slightly" more water into the combustion process VS: E-0.

Some of that water will make it's way into the engines oil.

Water is a precursor to sludge formation.

There would be a small increase in the tendency to form sludge with E-10 VS: E-0.

For this to actually happen in normal operation with adequate service intervals with proper oils and filtration would be unlikely.

Given a cold climate and short trips however might indicate that "severe service" intervals should be observed.

I don't think E-10 is a problem regarding sludge in any but the most severe of cold climate service even then only as an adjunct.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I apologize for a little

But since it was mentioned:

I've had both a Briggs and an Echo engine with "gummed up" carbs in the past few years.
Could I blame this on E-10.....big maybe.
Of course I always treat stored OPE fuel with stabilizer.
Maybe storing fuel is part of the problem.
Never had this happen prior to mandated E-10 (20 plus years with no problem).

Increased emissions?

The one thing I continue to read about in certain studies is that alcohol combustion in an internal combustion engine results in more formaldehyde and acetaldehyde emissions VS:E-0.
How much more? I don't know.
I do know that aldehydes are not good for health.

I'll leave the politics of ethanol in fuel alone.

Good day.

Rickey.

 

[Coprolite]

Salv,

Interesting views you have. You spent the first paragraph explaining how the ethanol removes the water from the fuel system. It does have to go somewhere while leaving the fuel system and the fuel system is a one way trip when engineered correctly.

Running rich is a relative term that refers to having more fuel than stoichiometrically required. This ratio is different for winter gasoline, summer gasoline, E10, E85 and E100. How much different, I don't really care.

Ethanol has freed gasoline makers from using MTBE, an additive which is not synonymous with healthy in any way.


Whether you like it or not, automotive engineers have built their ECUs, motors and fuel systems to use E10.

Running lean is mainly legislated out for emissions reasons that aren't related to ethanol.

In all, your posts do summarize the challenges faced by internal combustion engines for almost all fuel types available today.

NB, I don't endorse ethanol from corn or ethanol in any manner. However, I don't malign it, either. Ethanol does verge on being infinitely more renewable than fossil fuels, but other renewable fuels probably have much more merit than corn ethanol in the long run.

 

[donnyj08]

I believe the newer SN rated oils are designed to deal with effectively dispersing the effects of ethanol in fuels. I don't think sludge is really a concern when using ethanol fuels as long as you are using a good grade API SN certified oil at a reasonable interval.

 

[Vikas]

Older audience might remember the time when we had to pay to put ethylene alcohol in our gas tank! Now we get it free with the purchase of the gasoline

 

[mechtech2]

E 10 does not cause sludge.
For one, it is in the gas, not the oil.

I can't believe some of the nonsense post above.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: salv
Automobile engineers are not going to build motors and fuel systems for E-10, gasoline producers should be putting out a product that is more compatible with our vehicles.

On the first point, yes they do, and have been doing so for decades. On the second point, gasoline producers have to live with whatever regulatory regime stands in whichever jurisdiction they sell product. However, at least one gas company up here was selling E10 long before anyone considered regulations.

As for the original post, I doubt it. The old F-150 ran almost exclusively on E10 and had massive fuel dilution for years due to a bad carb (no, it wasn't E10's fault, it was Ford's fault). There was no sludge. As others have pointed out, sure, it's theoretically possible that E10 could contribute to the matter, but trying to nail that down, much less prove that E10 causes sludge, I highly doubt it. With the amount of E10 sold in North America, we should all be sludged to high heaven, but we're not.

 

[Maritime Storm]

This was what had me scratching my head, in theory E-10 could cause an increase in sludge if the fuel had a high water contest. However, once the engine reaches operating temp, this extra water should evaporate off. I was wondering if anyone else had seen this.

 

[KrisZ]

I never had a car that was run on pure gas. All of them had e10 as it is commonly used on Ontario since about 90's I believe and not one, even the ones with questionable maintenance history had sludge.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

E-10 causing sludge? That's funny-thanks for the good laugh.

If that were true, since I've been an E-10 user for about 30 years, my engines should have been completely sludged up. However, I've never seen anything of the sort, even with my 6 month oil change intervals on plain old conventional oil.

For the last 6 or 8 months I've been using E-15 from a local blender pump in my Elantra, and other than being less expensive I don't see any difference between that and E-10. Mileage is the same, performance is the same, and still, no sludge under the filler cap.

Originally Posted By: salv
E10 does cause sludge. Ethanol attracts water, so anywhere that gasoline goes, water goes too. Water is also a combustion byproduct of ethanol. When water gets mixed with motor oil under heat and pressure, it forms a sludgy, emulsified goo.
Ethanol has no benefit in motor oil other than operating as a fuel line antifreeze.
Anyone that tells you that it is a step closer to alternative fuels is wrong. Ethanol as a fuel is very inefficient, dirty burning, and very expensive to produce.
It is time to abandon ethanol entirely.


What a massive amount of misinformation. Incredible that any rational person would believe it in the first place, let alone actually parrot it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
This was what had me scratching my head, in theory E-10 could cause an increase in sludge if the fuel had a high water contest. However, once the engine reaches operating temp, this extra water should evaporate off.

Bingo. If one is running only short trips and not changing oil often enough (i.e. running in conditions conducive to the formation of sludge), then one might get sludge. I'd rather have E10 in a vehicle that's always at temperature than pure gas in a vehicle that never goes more than a mile at a time.

I understand a lot of people don't like E10, for a variety of reasons, many of which are valid. However, far too many point to E10 for every problem under the sun, mainly out of laziness. The OPE issue is a prime example. Of course, the E10 ruins all kinds of OPE fuel systems. It has nothing to do with the fact that the entire fuel system is comprised of fifty cents worth of parts, right? When one buys a lawnmower for under $100, one should not expect it to last twenty years.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I've used E10 "forever". I've never had any lubrication or fuel system problems with any of the engines I've owned, on-road or OPE. I've never had to rebuild one of my OPE's carburetors. I have a 2001 Honda GXV140 engine and a 2003 Honda GCV160 engine. Both are original with absolutely no work done to them. And--gasp--I store them over the winter with the tank full of stabilized E10. I adjusted the valves on the GCV160 last year and the engine was spotless inside. Will do the same on the GXV140 this year.

 

[artificialist]

E-10 sucks for a variety of reasons, but when I do oil changes, I find that if oil changes are done on time, E-10 or not, the engine has no sludge.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

I have had automobiles that have run on regular gasoline, 1968 Pontiac Bonneville with 400 Cu. In. V8 motor, which replaced a 1971 AMC Hornet with a 232 Cu. In. 6 cylinder (what a piece of ****) without ethanol, however, the lead was taken out and we now have unleaded gasoline. One of my vehicles that runs on unleaded gasoline used to get 27 mpg which is my Nissan now it gets a whopping, barely, 22 mpg with the e-10 ethanol mess. According to the manufacturers of my vehicles, the most that they can handle of ethanol is 10% and no more. I sure wish that I could get unleaded gasoline without ethanol. My vehicles would perform better based on mpg. I miss running e-0 unleaded gasoline. I miss running the 1968 Bonneville too.