Drunk Driving Laws out of Control

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Dan4510,with all due respect,I must make a comment.While drinkers have rights etc.,I have 2 cousins and an Aunt that were almost killed by a drunk driver.My Aunt and 2 cousins still have the scars from the wreck.My Aunts husband,the kids Dad,well,he was killed in the wreck.They were hit head on not far from where I live.
When people are at home and drink,they can drink all they want,it is none of my business.
When people drink and drive,IT IS my business.Why? Because I have to share the roads with them.When they drive after or while drinking,they make it MY business by doing so.
Drinking has also effected my life personally.
My Dad liked his alcohol more that he did me and my Mom.He took off and left before I was born.I only saw him 4-5 times during his 70+ years.He gave no support to use of any kind.As I said,he liked his drinking to much.Was he an alcoholic? No,I dont think he was.He just liked drinking and women.
 
Had a brother killed by a drunk driver on his HS graduation night back in '86. Terrible. But I don't support thoes whack laws.
 
Lets talk scam by the Government and M.A.D.D..
I talked to a VP from M.A.D.D. about 6 or 7 years ago about drunk driving. While talking to her I recommended a novel approach since I'm into firearms. I said why not just deal with the problem like the Government deals with people that miss use firearms. Just ban them from purchasing alcohol. I suggested that people that get nail for DUI get a special licence with an "A"
and red circle and line through it. Say first time 1 year they can't purchase alcohol. The second time 10 years and third time life time ban.
Anyone that knowingly supplies alcohol to someone banned gets hit with the same penalty.
The man or woman with a drinking problem is totally screwed if they lose their drivers license and can't get to work. It hurts them and their family in the wallet. Well if you can't buy it you can't drink it. Make the penalty extream if someone with a resticted licence is caught DUI. Like an automatic 5 years no parole.
She went nuts on me and said something like you can't do that because of their rights. I said what about my rights to be safe on the road.
 
When your legislators are slacking off they pass stricter DUI laws. After all it's something 98% or so of people polled approve of. They look like they're doing work over at the state house/ DC.

What irks me is where it's .08 for adults, .04 for commercial drivers, .02 for those under 21. If one needs to be under .02 to be "safe", senator, lets apply the law universally to ALL drivers and see you get pulled over after a one martini lunch. Like it? No?
 
Our drunk driving laws are not tough enough. First offense you should loose your license for 5 years. Second time it should be a life time ban. There is no excuse for operating any equipment, especially vehicles while impaired.
 
here in WA you can turn down the breathalizer test and automatically loose your licsense for one yer ..with it costing 4-5thousand $$ to justaccept the guilty plea ..I would opt to take a cab for a year before conceeding to a roadside test .
 
I think that the drunk driving laws are just fine the way they are. It's become a real expensive and laborous voilation. This is totally exclusive of the penalties of actually injuring, or killing, someone.

All that the reduction to .08 did was make more criminals. Those that didn't exceed the law ...just got moved into the criminal end of it.

Drunk driving laws will never stop a drunk from driving. Like gun laws ...only the responsible ones adhere to them.
 
While I am all for punishing those people convicted of drunk driveing I do not think that these law are constitional! I am for the Bill of Rights and or Constition!
 
quote:

Originally posted by like a rock:
Our drunk driving laws are not tough enough. First offense you should loose your license for 5 years. Second time it should be a life time ban. There is no excuse for operating any equipment, especially vehicles while impaired.

Couldn't agree more. Remember folks-driving is a Privilage and a States Right to regulate. If these laws cause hardships for some perhaps they could opt not to drive. Anything thats keeps my family a little safer I approve of.
 
quote:

Originally posted by motorguy222:
Dan4510,with all due respect,I must make a comment.While drinkers have rights etc.,I have 2 cousins and an Aunt that were almost killed by a drunk driver.My Aunt and 2 cousins still have the scars from the wreck.My Aunts husband,the kids Dad,well,he was killed in the wreck.They were hit head on not far from where I live.
When people are at home and drink,they can drink all they want,it is none of my business.
When people drink and drive,IT IS my business.Why? Because I have to share the roads with them.When they drive after or while drinking,they make it MY business by doing so.
Drinking has also effected my life personally.
My Dad liked his alcohol more that he did me and my Mom.He took off and left before I was born.I only saw him 4-5 times during his 70+ years.He gave no support to use of any kind.As I said,he liked his drinking to much.Was he an alcoholic? No,I dont think he was.He just liked drinking and women.


Motorguy,

While I emphathize with you, I too, have had a close friend killed by a drunk driver. Also have had several friends skinned by being just over the limit.

We are beyond the point of any decent marginal return on the policy.

The problem I wanted to point out with this post, is that yet again this is a good thing taken too far.

If we let due process slide for drunk driving it wont be long before this mentality is applied to many other laws. Not a society I want to live in.

Due process is a wonderful thing. My ex tried twice to have me arrested for domestic abuse during a very contentious divorce without any substantiating proof. Due process was the principle that allowed me to not have to deal with that when she only had empty accusatoins without any substantiating proof. After she tried that the second time the Judge told her not to come back and stated that it was obvious to him she was using this as a tactic to force the divorce on her terms.

Due process is what protects citizens from being railroaded on charges. When it goes away such as it has with drunk driving charges without any way to make the government prove its contentions or allow fair adjudication of the charge, or allow examination of the prosecutorial evidence by defense, its time to change the policy. I say this as a person whom someone has attempted to railroad on a charge that was bogus.

I, for one, dont want society telling me when I can and cant drive by having the car sniff my breath every ten minutes....George Orwell would have been proud of that one.

The government overreaching is far more dangerous than a few drunks that dont get caught.

And the policy of taking cars for drunk driving is a seperate long post in and of itself. That is absolutely wrong--yet another policy that has gone bad.

Dan

[ August 21, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Dan4510 ]
 
guys lets get serious here. its unfortunate that some of youre friends and family died as a result of a drunk driver, but people die all day and night long as the hands of completly sober people as well.
 
My thoughts on the subject:
This is not, and MUST not turn into Orwell's 1984. People MUST presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The vast majority of people are good and decent, and they must be left alone to live their lives as they wish, so long as their actions don't hurt anyone else. So what if he drank, SO LONG AS HE DIDN'T ENDANGER OR HURT ANYONE. Government and rules are a necessary evil, (emphasis on evil) and should be as few and as minimally intrusive as possible.
If by your DIRECT actions you hurt or threaten to hurt, THEN the good people must act to stop you.
If alcoholism is labeled a disease, so be it. However, if a debilitating disease is not under control, the person should not be allowed to drive on our PUBLIC roads.
If you choose to drink, you can party 'til you puke for all I care. If you drink and drive then it's my and everyone's business. For example...
If I like to play with explosives, and place a bomb in a public place, and it doesn't even go off, I spend big time in jail. As it should be.
If it goes off and I have hurt someone, I get bigger time. As it should be.
If it goes off and I kill someone, that's murder. And I should expect to lose my life for that crime.
So what's the real difference between the above example and knowingly and indifferently operating a potentially lethal weapon while impaired? ESSENTIALLY NONE. Drinking drivers use a potentially lethal weapon (the vehicle)that may maim or kill innocent people. Your loved ones are just as injured or dead as if the driver used a bomb.
Let's get honest, folks; more people are killed and maimed by impaired drivers than were ever killed in any war. If we had a foreign force maiming and killing tens of thousands of our people each year, we would declare war and wipe them off the face of the earth. Let's declare war on people who don't give a **** about the lives of others. Your life, my life, the lives of our loved ones are irreplacable.
Assure due process. This is America. Everyone MUST have his/her day in court and be able to face their accuser. However, if you're guilty, you pay.

[ August 21, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: olddognewtrks ]
 
quote:

knowingly operating a lethal weapon while impaired

..and what standard would you set for such determination of "impairment"? What if I, just because I feel so intractable about the bitterness that I feel for those who harmed me, arbitrarilly slash that in half ...making you a criminal? Suppose you comply with my new standard ..and I, through my same bitter anger ..slash it in half again??


This is to the point of social "terra-forming".


quote:

Drinking drivers use a potentially lethal weapon (the vehicle)

Under that definition alone ...half the clowns out there have a state issued "license to kill". No alcohol needed.

I don't routinely drink. I never have ..and can't now, besides an occasional beer at a celebratory dinner out, because of diabetes. On the other hand I know that at some time in my life, I've had a couple of beers and driven. Why was I totally legal for decades ..law abiding ...proper ..responsible ..

..and now due to an arbitrary line drawn in the sand ...I can now be a criminal and be flogged in public as being a willful antisocial menace to society???

What part about ME changed????
 
Gary: I was apparently editing my post while you were reading my 'first draft'. I reworked my post because I wanted to be clear about my opinions. It looks like things 'crossed in the mail'.
Impairment should be determined by strict scientific testing, never by arbitrary decisions.
Regarding half the bozos who can't drive worth a hoot:
Driving should be subject to tighter standards. Germany's method of training and licensing comes to mind. Our current lack of true standards is a sad joke, and should be addressed with mandatory testing of real, honest to gosh skills on a regular basis. Heck, I had to take a commercial driver's license test years ago, (for driving an ambulance). It took five minutes for the written test, and driving five minutes, in perfect weather, in a VW Bug. I was then 'qualified' to drive dynamite trucks at night, in the mountains, in a storm. Unreal.
M.A.D.D., for one, has been very vocal regarding drunk driving, and has done some good things. However, they're as subject to histerical politics as the next guy. That's why we should deal only with scientific facts, not emotion, no matter how emotional we may feel.
If any of us have been in fact guilty of driving when we shouldn't have (I'm guilty at least once) let's admit to imperfection and good luck, and get on with life. Our society has come to recognize that some things we all once tolerated aren't cool. Now we know better. So let's just stop it from happening any more. That's all.

[ August 21, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: olddognewtrks ]
 
Much of the trouble is that people support passing tougher laws than they will support enforcing. Going from 0.10 to 0.08 was a big mistake. We should go back to 0.10, or even 0.15, and then actually enforce it. A substantial license suspension with jail for driving while suspended for the real drunks would do a lot. There should be no way for people with numerous convictions to be on the road again. For some interesting numbers, see http://www.forbes.com/business/forbes/2004/0726/100.html.

Back in the 70's Car and Driver did an interesting test. Their staff, that talked big on partying, showed up at a parking lot with pylons, a breath analyzer, and everybody's favorite poison. The first drink or 2 actually lowered times through the course. Then both the times and flying pylons started going up. Towards the end, some of them refused to drink anymore, and others heaved. None of them reached the 0.15 that was the limit in the bad old days.

A swift trial, and a law juries would accept would solve the problem within constitutional limits.
 
For everyone's consideration.. It is scary what they want to do, have your breath checked by your computerized car every 10 minutes or it shuts down.

*************************************************


Drunk Driving Laws Are Out of Control

by Radley Balko

Radley Balko is a policy analyst for the Cato Institute.

When Pennsylvanian Keith Emerich went to the hospital recently for an irregular heartbeat, he told his doctor he was a heavy drinker: a six-pack per day. Later, Pennsylvania's Department of Transportation sent Emerich a letter. His driver's license had been revoked. If Emerich wanted it back, he'd need to prove to Pennsylvania authorities that he was competent to drive. His doctor had turned him in, as required by state law.

The Pennsylvania law is old (it dates back to the 1960s), but it's hardly unusual. Courts and lawmakers have stripped DWI defendants of the presumption of innocence - along with several other common criminal justice protections we afford to the likes of accused rapists, murderers and pedophiles.

In the 1990 case Michigan v. Sitz, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the magnitude of the drunken driving problem outweighed the "slight" intrusion into motorists' protections against unreasonable search effected by roadblock sobriety checkpoints. Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Rehnquist ruled that the 25,000 roadway deaths due to alcohol were reason enough to set aside the Fourth Amendment.

The problem is that the 25,000 number was awfully misleading. It included any highway fatality in which alcohol was in any way involved: a sober motorist striking an intoxicated pedestrian, for example.

It's a number that's still used today. In 2002, the Los Angeles Times examined accident data and estimated that in the previous year, of the 18,000 "alcohol-related" traffic fatalities drunk driving activists cited the year before, only about 5,000 involved a drunk driver taking the life of a sober driver, pedestrian, or passenger.

Unfortunately, courts and legislatures still regularly cite the inflated "alcohol-related" number when justifying new laws that chip away at our civil liberties.

For example, the Supreme Court has ruled that states may legislate away a motorist's Sixth Amendment right to a jury trial and his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. In 2002, the Supreme Court of Wisconsin ruled that police officers could forcibly extract blood from anyone suspected of drunk driving. Other courts have ruled that prosecutors aren't obligated to provide defendants with blood or breath test samples for independent testing (even though both are feasible and relatively cheap to do). In almost every other facet of criminal law, defendants are given access to the evidence against them.

These decisions haven't gone unnoticed in state legislatures. Forty-one states now reserve the right to revoke drunken driving defendants' licenses before they're ever brought to trial. Thirty-seven states now impose harsher penalties on motorists who refuse to take roadside sobriety tests than on those who take them and fail. Seventeen states have laws denying drunk driving defendants the same opportunities to plea bargain given to those accused of violent crimes.

Until recently, New York City cops could seize the cars of first-offender drunk driving suspects upon arrest. Those acquitted or otherwise cleared of charges were still required to file civil suits to get their cars back, which typically cost thousands of dollars. The city of Los Angeles still seizes the cars of suspected first-time drunk drivers, as well as the cars of those suspected of drug activity and soliciting prostitutes.

Newer laws are even worse. As of last month, Washington State now requires anyone arrested (not convicted -- arrested) for drunken driving to install an "ignition interlock" device, which forces the driver to blow into a breath test tube before starting the car, and at regular intervals while driving. A second law mandates that juries hear all drunken driving cases. It then instructs juries to consider the evidence "in a light most favorable to the prosecution," absurd evidentiary standard at odds with everything the American criminal justice system is supposed to stand for.

Even scarier are the laws that didn't pass, but will inevitably be introduced again. New Mexico's state legislature nearly passed a law that would mandate ignition interlock devices on every car sold in the state beginning in 2008, regardless of the buyer's driving record. Drivers would have been required to pass a breath test to start the car, then again every 10 minutes while driving. Car computer systems would have kept records of the tests, which would have been downloaded at service centers and sent to law enforcement officials for evaluation. New York considered a similar law.

That isn't to say we ought to ease up on drunken drivers. But our laws should be grounded in sound science and the presumption of innocence, not in hysteria. They should target repeat offenders and severely impaired drunks, not social drinkers who straddle the legal threshold. Though the threat of drunken driving has significantly diminished over the last 20 years, it's still routinely overstated by anti-alcohol activists and lawmakers. Even if the threat were as severe as it's often portrayed, casting aside basic criminal protections and civil liberties is the wrong way to address it.
 
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