Drive by wire, technology driving us backward
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It's my understanding that the TBW protects the Moco from warranty issues..such as...comming out of the bar and going WOT, smoking tires and raising [censored]...it will only let 85% of the power hit the wheels saving the motor from exploding..bring back the good old days!!
hate DBW. the only person going to get stuck with the problem is consumers. lives will be risked, people will be stranded, hundreds will be spent. The problems are already outrageous and the failure boom hasnt even happened yet. One would be horribly naive to believe that DBW is even remotely close to being as reliable as cable actuation has been. Sure there are two potentiometers per pedal, but what about moisture, dust, wear and EMF? The sad part (no pun) about it is that the consumer (again) has to absorb the cost of DBW components slapped onto their vehicles, without a clue or a say.
Responsiveness is more a matter of ECU programming. The RS4 is quite responsive.
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Responsiveness is more a matter of ECU programming. The RS4 is quite responsive.
Same here. The TL is definately programmed to give you a false sense of low end torque at throttle tip in.
I don't like it for potential reliability issues although I don't know of anyone that has had them yet on the TL.
I do, however like that the throttle closes for a split second on upshifts. Shifts are done with the throttle closed which should help with transmission reliability and even though shifts are quick, I can't feel them. If this were a performance vehicle, I would hate this feature.
Responsiveness is more a matter of ECU programming. The RS4 is quite responsive.
Same here. The TL is definately programmed to give you a false sense of low end torque at throttle tip in.
I don't like it for potential reliability issues although I don't know of anyone that has had them yet on the TL.
I do, however like that the throttle closes for a split second on upshifts. Shifts are done with the throttle closed which should help with transmission reliability and even though shifts are quick, I can't feel them. If this were a performance vehicle, I would hate this feature.
My 7yr old BMW has DBW. Reliable and better than any cable operated car I've owned. This BMW is my 27th vehicle
Like any emerging technology it will take some time to perfect.
DBW is relatively new on gasoline passenger cars although it has been used on light and heavy diesels for years.
We went through the same things with electronic ignition, fuel injection and ABS. The early attempts weren't great but there have certainly been huge advances in reliability and driveability on those systems. (still don't like ABS though)
I can't comment on the Ford Systems but the early GM trucks with DBW were gawd awful.
The systems on the 4cyl Ecotecs and 3.5L V6 GM is pretty decent.
I recently drove an 08 Caravan rental it is Drive By Wire system was excellent.
As for steer by wire, Bulldozers, construction cranes, and large ships all have it. Kinda scary
DBW is relatively new on gasoline passenger cars although it has been used on light and heavy diesels for years.
We went through the same things with electronic ignition, fuel injection and ABS. The early attempts weren't great but there have certainly been huge advances in reliability and driveability on those systems. (still don't like ABS though)
I can't comment on the Ford Systems but the early GM trucks with DBW were gawd awful.
The systems on the 4cyl Ecotecs and 3.5L V6 GM is pretty decent.
I recently drove an 08 Caravan rental it is Drive By Wire system was excellent.
As for steer by wire, Bulldozers, construction cranes, and large ships all have it. Kinda scary
I think you're right that DBW will prove to be very reliable. Although, like I posted in the old DBW post, gone are the days where I pulled some speaker wire out of my stereo when the throttle cable slipped of it's clip in the GN and I was able to drive home by pulling on the wire routed through my window.
I believe some high end Mercedes vehicles now have braking by wire. If the brake pedal position sensor fails the brakes are applied automatically so I suppose it is somewhat safe.
When I was looking for my CV I specifically avoided 05+ with the TBW due to the failure rate and slow response. Also harder to mod. I hear it is for emissions. When you let off the gas suddenly there is a HC spike with the cable. TBW closes the blade slower to burn the fuel off. This "luddite" will keep his cable and no traction or stability control.
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Kestas
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Many, if not most, of the 93-95 Mercedes models (my car included) have DBW throttles made with disintegrating wire insulation. Many of these owners now need to replace these units because of the shorting problems that result from this poor engineering.
I agree with some of the above posts, where - on paper - it appears to be a good design, but automakers have a poor history of execution in manufacturing. They'll make it as cheaply as possible to last through warranty. It is for this reason I hate the recent "advances" in automotive technology.
It cost $1200 to replace the unit on my car. This is far more money than this design will ever save me in gasoline. Mercedes came out with a horrible design for this unit, and the present owners are stuck with the cost of fixing these units.
More detail: http://v12uberalles.com/throttle_actuator_rewire.htm
I agree with some of the above posts, where - on paper - it appears to be a good design, but automakers have a poor history of execution in manufacturing. They'll make it as cheaply as possible to last through warranty. It is for this reason I hate the recent "advances" in automotive technology.
It cost $1200 to replace the unit on my car. This is far more money than this design will ever save me in gasoline. Mercedes came out with a horrible design for this unit, and the present owners are stuck with the cost of fixing these units.
More detail: http://v12uberalles.com/throttle_actuator_rewire.htm
My saturn throttle bodies gum up with PCV related junk every 10k miles or less. Feel it in the pedal. Bet the little butterfly actuating motor will give up and start throwing codes... or, of course, overheat and die an expensive death. One would need catch cans etc for the fumes to collect in.
Had a newish corrolla rental that would upshift 1-2 at around 3k RPM when it was cold, even at WOT. Am sure that was an anti-abuse measure.
Have heard of a car that has a sluggish "city" mode but picks up responsiveness when it gets going 40 mph. Can only imagine the idiots flying down the highway, wasting gas, b/c it's so fun to drive all of a sudden.
Dual potentiometers mean redundancy, sure, but I assume the computer would select the slower of two readings. The lawyers must have planned carefully to prevent audi 5000 style lawsuits. Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Am not as bothered by TBW's presence on automatic transmission cars as control was already ceded by getting the slushbox. As said above controlling torque during shifts and other conditions saves wear on those gearboxes. Wife has an aunt who's just "hard on transmissions", I have never ridden with her but she could probably use some anti-abuse programming.
Bummer is if 10% of the cars come with a stick the PCM programming will still be auto-style and the throttle parts will be the same. My saturns, for smog reasons, hold the idle speed bypass (which has existed since computerized feedback carb days) open during shifts, so the RPMs float well above idle or even above the speed needed for the next gear.
Had a newish corrolla rental that would upshift 1-2 at around 3k RPM when it was cold, even at WOT. Am sure that was an anti-abuse measure.
Have heard of a car that has a sluggish "city" mode but picks up responsiveness when it gets going 40 mph. Can only imagine the idiots flying down the highway, wasting gas, b/c it's so fun to drive all of a sudden.
Dual potentiometers mean redundancy, sure, but I assume the computer would select the slower of two readings. The lawyers must have planned carefully to prevent audi 5000 style lawsuits. Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Am not as bothered by TBW's presence on automatic transmission cars as control was already ceded by getting the slushbox. As said above controlling torque during shifts and other conditions saves wear on those gearboxes. Wife has an aunt who's just "hard on transmissions", I have never ridden with her but she could probably use some anti-abuse programming.
Bummer is if 10% of the cars come with a stick the PCM programming will still be auto-style and the throttle parts will be the same. My saturns, for smog reasons, hold the idle speed bypass (which has existed since computerized feedback carb days) open during shifts, so the RPMs float well above idle or even above the speed needed for the next gear.
One more comment. My Prius is drive by wire, along with BRAKE BY WIRE(although it is a triple redundant system), with electric power steering, and an electric AC compressor. Now get this...
It is THE most reliable car on the Planet, by a wide margin. (as per consumer reports). It has 40% less problems than the average car. The next most reliable car has 20% less problems than the average car.
I think the important thing(as previously mentioned) is proper implementation of the technology.
It is THE most reliable car on the Planet, by a wide margin. (as per consumer reports). It has 40% less problems than the average car. The next most reliable car has 20% less problems than the average car.
I think the important thing(as previously mentioned) is proper implementation of the technology.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
My saturn throttle bodies gum up with PCV related junk every 10k miles or less. Feel it in the pedal. Bet the little butterfly actuating motor will give up and start throwing codes... or, of course, overheat and die an expensive death. One would need catch cans etc for the fumes to collect in.
Had a newish corrolla rental that would upshift 1-2 at around 3k RPM when it was cold, even at WOT. Am sure that was an anti-abuse measure.
Have heard of a car that has a sluggish "city" mode but picks up responsiveness when it gets going 40 mph. Can only imagine the idiots flying down the highway, wasting gas, b/c it's so fun to drive all of a sudden.
Dual potentiometers mean redundancy, sure, but I assume the computer would select the slower of two readings. The lawyers must have planned carefully to prevent audi 5000 style lawsuits. Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Am not as bothered by TBW's presence on automatic transmission cars as control was already ceded by getting the slushbox. As said above controlling torque during shifts and other conditions saves wear on those gearboxes. Wife has an aunt who's just "hard on transmissions", I have never ridden with her but she could probably use some anti-abuse programming.
Bummer is if 10% of the cars come with a stick the PCM programming will still be auto-style and the throttle parts will be the same. My saturns, for smog reasons, hold the idle speed bypass (which has existed since computerized feedback carb days) open during shifts, so the RPMs float well above idle or even above the speed needed for the next gear.
Kind of off topic but in response to your "heat related death" comment, I plugged the coolant off to the throttlebody and it now stays cool to the touch. It was primarily for performance since I live in a hot climate but in the back of my mind I was wondering if it could potentially help the life of the DBW system.
My saturn throttle bodies gum up with PCV related junk every 10k miles or less. Feel it in the pedal. Bet the little butterfly actuating motor will give up and start throwing codes... or, of course, overheat and die an expensive death. One would need catch cans etc for the fumes to collect in.
Had a newish corrolla rental that would upshift 1-2 at around 3k RPM when it was cold, even at WOT. Am sure that was an anti-abuse measure.
Have heard of a car that has a sluggish "city" mode but picks up responsiveness when it gets going 40 mph. Can only imagine the idiots flying down the highway, wasting gas, b/c it's so fun to drive all of a sudden.
Dual potentiometers mean redundancy, sure, but I assume the computer would select the slower of two readings. The lawyers must have planned carefully to prevent audi 5000 style lawsuits. Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Am not as bothered by TBW's presence on automatic transmission cars as control was already ceded by getting the slushbox. As said above controlling torque during shifts and other conditions saves wear on those gearboxes. Wife has an aunt who's just "hard on transmissions", I have never ridden with her but she could probably use some anti-abuse programming.
Bummer is if 10% of the cars come with a stick the PCM programming will still be auto-style and the throttle parts will be the same. My saturns, for smog reasons, hold the idle speed bypass (which has existed since computerized feedback carb days) open during shifts, so the RPMs float well above idle or even above the speed needed for the next gear.
Kind of off topic but in response to your "heat related death" comment, I plugged the coolant off to the throttlebody and it now stays cool to the touch. It was primarily for performance since I live in a hot climate but in the back of my mind I was wondering if it could potentially help the life of the DBW system.
Replace the "DBW" with the word "Fuel Injection" and I'll bet we'd have had the same discussion in the 80's.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with DBW but, as mentioned, the manufacturers are great at making the parts too cheap. I've had zero issues with the DBW in my F-150.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with DBW but, as mentioned, the manufacturers are great at making the parts too cheap. I've had zero issues with the DBW in my F-150.
JTK
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
...Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Excellent idea. It's the contact points in the potentiometers that usually cause the problems. I know some Chevy Trailblazer owners have corrected their TBW issues by opening up the pots on the TB, cleaning, re-greasing and re-sealing them. The GM T360 TBs have 2 pots, not sure on the accelerator pedal position sensor. The APPS is another trouble spot that can get wet and jostled with big'ol feet. I know with the GM/Delphi systems, it doesn't take much for the system to get tossed into "reduced engine power" mode, where you have fast idle only and no throttle response. OBDII/CAN will tell you if it's the APPS, or TPS causing the issue.
I'm not against TBW. I understand it's for more precise computer control. I just don't see the need when the darn throttle body is 3ft away from the go pedal!
Joel
...Personally think a sealed optical pickup would work better.
Excellent idea. It's the contact points in the potentiometers that usually cause the problems. I know some Chevy Trailblazer owners have corrected their TBW issues by opening up the pots on the TB, cleaning, re-greasing and re-sealing them. The GM T360 TBs have 2 pots, not sure on the accelerator pedal position sensor. The APPS is another trouble spot that can get wet and jostled with big'ol feet. I know with the GM/Delphi systems, it doesn't take much for the system to get tossed into "reduced engine power" mode, where you have fast idle only and no throttle response. OBDII/CAN will tell you if it's the APPS, or TPS causing the issue.
I'm not against TBW. I understand it's for more precise computer control. I just don't see the need when the darn throttle body is 3ft away from the go pedal!
Joel
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