Downside of oversize filter

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Originally Posted By: DrRoughneck
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If the filters angles base down then the center tube drains out and a larger filter takes more time to refill after a start. Try it, fill a filter with oil then turn it upside down. Gravity has to pull the oil back to the oil pan. If the galleries on the outlet side are above the filter maybe not. Every filter I have taken off that is base angled down has an empty outlet pipe. Oil went bye bye down the hole.
smile.gif


Yes, filter is base down, but I thought the ADBV would prevent oil from draining down. When I pulled the previous OEM filter after sitting overnight it was still full of oil.


The new filter should act the same if the ADBV is working correctly.
 
Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
I have had issues with start up ticking with the Fram Ultra on my truck. And as I recal I remember one other that experienced the same issue. Don't remember who it was at the moment, I'll have to go back and see if I can find that post. Anyways, went back to ACDelco and no more [url=stahttps://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3774617/Possible_Fram_Ultra_issue#Post3774617rt][url=stahttps://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3774617/Possible_Fram_Ultra_issue#Post3774617rt]stahttps://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3774617/Possible_Fram_Ultra_issue#Post3774617rt[/url][/url] up noise.
 
Originally Posted By: DrRoughneck
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If the filters angles base down then the center tube drains out and a larger filter takes more time to refill after a start. Try it, fill a filter with oil then turn it upside down. Gravity has to pull the oil back to the oil pan. If the galleries on the outlet side are above the filter maybe not. Every filter I have taken off that is base angled down has an empty outlet pipe. Oil went bye bye down the hole.
smile.gif


Yes, filter is base down, but I thought the ADBV would prevent oil from draining down. When I pulled the previous OEM filter after sitting overnight it was still full of oil.


There are two chambers divided by the media. The center tube is open at the bottom. Oil runs out. Even if the ADBV is perfect in the outer chamber, air entering the filter like through a slowly leaking bypass valve would allow oil to pass through the media and out the center tube. Sometimes people drain a filter by drilling a hole in the top of the filter. The test for that is pour oil into a filter and watch the oil pass through the media. It takes a vacuum to hold the oil in the filter, like when a sink vent is plugged at home, the water doesn't go down or goes slowly down. That's how I see it.
 
In order for the oil to drain out the center tube when the ADBV is working properly, a base down mounted filter would have to be higher than the rest of the engine's oiling system, and that same vacuum would have to be broken. Or there would have to be enough head pressure from the elevation of the oil above the bearings, etc to overcome that vacuum force and cause flow to the sump.

My Tacoma V6 filter is base down and on top of the engine, but it's always full of oil when I change it. I've never had any start-up noise issues on that engine, but I don't think it's that sensitive since it won't even tick after an oil change and the filter and oil galleries are dry.
 
I have had start up noise with XG3600 4.0L toyota switched to RP 20-400 never a tick ever now even run out to 10k only filter I run on it now.
 
ADBV's are not foolproof they all drainback over time, OR, the oil that passes through the media drains back through the engine.

Why do you need a larger than spec filter?
 
During an oil change, I pre-fill the filter if it goes straight up into the engine from the bottom, thus the dry start is way less. (spin-ons)

If your over-size filter is half way up the engine and turned on it’s side, then some oil will run back into the engine. If the filter near the bottom of the engine and installs straight up, then the filter will always will be 90% full at start up.
 
You don't get a tick for a minute even if your filter is M/T even a one gallon size oil filter. My little S2000 engine would fill a gallon size oil filter in less than 15 seconds.
Your tick is from something else if its ticking for a minute.

ROD
 
Running an XG3600 currently on my Corolla (previously an M-1) without any issues. Haven't noticed any difference in sound since the switchover. My Filter mounts "Base-Up" from the bottom of the engine.
What model and year is your Toyota?
What part of the USA do you reside?

The VVT-I system on my 1ZZ-FE is prone to "ticking" upon start-up for a few seconds, especially when its very cold (I live in the North East). Come Summer, nothing!
Like others have said, maybe you got a "dud"........I'm sure if this is the case, FRAM would have no problem replacing the filter or reimbursing you.
 
Originally Posted By: DrRoughneck
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
If the filters angles base down then the center tube drains out and a larger filter takes more time to refill after a start. Try it, fill a filter with oil then turn it upside down. Gravity has to pull the oil back to the oil pan. If the galleries on the outlet side are above the filter maybe not. Every filter I have taken off that is base angled down has an empty outlet pipe. Oil went bye bye down the hole.
smile.gif


Yes, filter is base down, but I thought the ADBV would prevent oil from draining down. When I pulled the previous OEM filter after sitting overnight it was still full of oil.


Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
In order for the oil to drain out the center tube when the ADBV is working properly, a base down mounted filter would have to be higher than the rest of the engine's oiling system, and that same vacuum would have to be broken. Or there would have to be enough head pressure from the elevation of the oil above the bearings, etc to overcome that vacuum force and cause flow to the sump.

My Tacoma V6 filter is base down and on top of the engine, but it's always full of oil when I change it. I've never had any start-up noise issues on that engine, but I don't think it's that sensitive since it won't even tick after an oil change and the filter and oil galleries are dry.


That's what I said, if the filter is higher, which it seems to be in every car I have seen. The vacuum isn't strong enough to hold the oil in the center tube. It's strong enough combined with an adbv and media to hold oil in the outer tube. I think you yourself have said people make a hole in the filter to allow the oil to drain out. Bottom line the oil drains out of the center and takes longer to refill in a larger filter.
 
Originally Posted By: dave123
I have had start up noise with XG3600 4.0L toyota switched to RP 20-400 never a tick ever now even run out to 10k only filter I run on it now.

Same Toyota 4.0l V6 engine, noise also after I switched to an XG3600..
 
Same whistling sound this morning upon cold start. I popped the hood and it sound like it's coming from the idler pulleys, not the inside of the engine.
What's curious is that the sound stops after about a minute. It never comes back while the engine is warm.
Wouldn't a bad idler pulley bearing make noise all the time?
 
Originally Posted By: DrRoughneck
Same whistling sound this morning upon cold start. I popped the hood and it sound like it's coming from the idler pulleys, not the inside of the engine.
What's curious is that the sound stops after about a minute. It never comes back while the engine is warm.
Wouldn't a bad idler pulley bearing make noise all the time?


Sounds like a coincidence, and what you're hearing is other noise not caused by the oil filter.
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
In order for the oil to drain out the center tube when the ADBV is working properly, a base down mounted filter would have to be higher than the rest of the engine's oiling system, and that same vacuum would have to be broken. Or there would have to be enough head pressure from the elevation of the oil above the bearings, etc to overcome that vacuum force and cause flow to the sump.

My Tacoma V6 filter is base down and on top of the engine, but it's always full of oil when I change it. I've never had any start-up noise issues on that engine, but I don't think it's that sensitive since it won't even tick after an oil change and the filter and oil galleries are dry.

That's what I said, if the filter is higher, which it seems to be in every car I have seen. The vacuum isn't strong enough to hold the oil in the center tube. It's strong enough combined with an adbv and media to hold oil in the outer tube. I think you yourself have said people make a hole in the filter to allow the oil to drain out. Bottom line the oil drains out of the center and takes longer to refill in a larger filter.

2005 Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 ... filter mounted vertical with base down on top of the engine. Yes, I have to punch a hole in the top of the filter to break the vacuum in order to get it to drain. If the center tube would drain out by itself, then there wouldn't be any oil there to gush out when the filter is removed. If the ADBV is working correctly, then the center tube will also remain full of oil because there is nothing to break the vacuum. It would be like sticking a straw into water, then sealing the top end and pulling the straw out of the water. The water won't drain out of the straw until you break the vacuum.

 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
In order for the oil to drain out the center tube when the ADBV is working properly, a base down mounted filter would have to be higher than the rest of the engine's oiling system, and that same vacuum would have to be broken. Or there would have to be enough head pressure from the elevation of the oil above the bearings, etc to overcome that vacuum force and cause flow to the sump.

My Tacoma V6 filter is base down and on top of the engine, but it's always full of oil when I change it. I've never had any start-up noise issues on that engine, but I don't think it's that sensitive since it won't even tick after an oil change and the filter and oil galleries are dry.

That's what I said, if the filter is higher, which it seems to be in every car I have seen. The vacuum isn't strong enough to hold the oil in the center tube. It's strong enough combined with an adbv and media to hold oil in the outer tube. I think you yourself have said people make a hole in the filter to allow the oil to drain out. Bottom line the oil drains out of the center and takes longer to refill in a larger filter.

2005 Tacoma with the 4.0L V6 ... filter mounted vertical with base down on top of the engine. Yes, I have to punch a hole in the top of the filter to break the vacuum in order to get it to drain. If the center tube would drain out by itself, then there wouldn't be any oil there to gush out when the filter is removed. If the ADBV is working correctly, then the center tube will also remain full of oil because there is nothing to break the vacuum. It would be like sticking a straw into water, then sealing the top end and pulling the straw out of the water. The water won't drain out of the straw until you break the vacuum.



Fill a filter with oil and take it over to your dining table and turn it over. Nothing should come out by your theory. The Camry has a similar filter angle. That's why I wait to take the filter off and then it doesn't spill oil. Take off right away, oil spills down, they even have like a catch for it. It takes a while especially on a high filter for the oil to drain out through the main bearings. If I drain it all night nothing at all comes out of the filter. It depends on the hole size, viscosity, and the density of the liquid. Try the dining table test. So when the Camry is started every morning cold the center tube has to fill back up. Without any doubt. That's why I never used the long version 3600 on it. Maybe you have the magic engine so tight nothing goes through the parts back to the pan, ever.
 
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