more than that but if the performance is good thats all het counts
bruce
bruce
Double-Super-Secret 5W-40 Audi RS4 Racing Oil
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Sure I guess, but a couple did indicate that they have done VOA's, but wanted to "keep it secret". That was the "secret" part of my rant, not really directed at RLI.
I guess that was more of a "general" rant. And it is a valid point.
Most of the information on TD's can be obtained by just paying attention to the API certification and weight, although it is more specific.
I'll give RLI credit though, they put NOACK volatility on there. You don't see that every day!
My point is usually when a manufacturer claims to have a very tough oil(schaeffers, amsoil) they put more specs up, not less.
Hmmmmm....and lots of Zinc for those wanting/needing it.
Thanks bruce.
This might change my opinion of this oil's wear performance in this test. The other oils (Amsoil/M1 for sure) had much less ZDDP. That is one variable that actually makes the wear comparison not that accurate. IMO.
The fuel dilution/viscosity control is great.
This might change my opinion of this oil's wear performance in this test. The other oils (Amsoil/M1 for sure) had much less ZDDP. That is one variable that actually makes the wear comparison not that accurate. IMO.
The fuel dilution/viscosity control is great.
Quote:
Thanks bruce.
This might change my opinion of this oil's wear performance in this test. The other oils (Amsoil/M1 for sure) had much less ZDDP. That is one variable that actually makes the wear comparison not that accurate. IMO.
Huh. Your last statement is not even logically consistent. The wear comparison is quite accurate. That other oils do not contain the same levels of additives is immaterial.
I can tell you several things that will blow away your theory.
1) The UOA data shows no correlation between ZDDP levels and Iron wear levels.
2) One of the oils in the study that had some of the worst wear was Motul 300V 5W-40, which has 1400 ppm of Zinc, 2500 ppm of Calcium, and 1300 ppm of Phosphorus in it's VOA. This is pretty darn close to what Terry's lab measures for BioSyn. Bruce's numbers are off.
That's what I was thinking.
MolaKule
Staff member
"I thought Iron and Copper were two of the most important wear indicators on a UOA? If this is the case, doesn't having copper as an additive simply mask any potential wear in that area as it will be a small % of what is expected? ".
The answer is an emphatic NO and here is why VOA's and UOA's are very useful:
If you know the oil starts out with 200 ppm of additive agent, then when you UOA the oil, as a first aprroximation, you simply subtract that 200 ppm from the copper (PPM) reading. and assume that X amount of copper came from the journal bearings or distributor bushings.
FOr example, in typical VOA's, you might see 2 ppm of Fe or iron. After a UOA with 5k on the oil, you see 12 ppm of iron in the report. As a first approximation, you assume that the engine contributed 10 ppm of iron to oil. Very simple actually.
The answer is an emphatic NO and here is why VOA's and UOA's are very useful:
If you know the oil starts out with 200 ppm of additive agent, then when you UOA the oil, as a first aprroximation, you simply subtract that 200 ppm from the copper (PPM) reading. and assume that X amount of copper came from the journal bearings or distributor bushings.
FOr example, in typical VOA's, you might see 2 ppm of Fe or iron. After a UOA with 5k on the oil, you see 12 ppm of iron in the report. As a first approximation, you assume that the engine contributed 10 ppm of iron to oil. Very simple actually.
That assumes that all virgin samples would have the exact same amount of copper, if not, you're required to do a VOA on every batch.
""Bruce's numbers are off.""
Most likly NOT same batch you have I have no problem with this oil
bruce
Most likly NOT same batch you have I have no problem with this oil
bruce
beacuse of problem reading UOA's I do not like conflicting metals such as Copper or Sodium in the add pak But is not a big deal if you know it is there.
bruce
bruce
Thanks for sharing the positive contribution of your labs data bruce. I appreciate it and looking at this oil formula makes me say, DANG this stuff is good.
The measured viscometrics are off on the high side obviously or we would not have designed a 5w40. Cu and Sb readings are off too, which is to be expected since the add pack in this oil is patented and no one else can use it. Testing and interpreting the adds are fairly tricky in this formula.
The Ca specifically is way too high, consistent with most the readings of additives in your example.
I agree with bruce that its performance in multiple bench and actual in use tests is impressive and performance is the key and RLI's formulas perform consistently well!
Vis Index is incredible at near 200, show me oils that are that stable. It never varies even when severely damaged by aromatics ( fuel). For contrast Redline 5w40 yields 170 clean/ VOA.
The patented add pack is tricking your other readings leading you to the guesses you list as "maybes". Probably better to list only what your test revealed and not questions it cannot answer or confusion/obfuscation will exist.
Thanks again, Terry
The measured viscometrics are off on the high side obviously or we would not have designed a 5w40. Cu and Sb readings are off too, which is to be expected since the add pack in this oil is patented and no one else can use it. Testing and interpreting the adds are fairly tricky in this formula.
The Ca specifically is way too high, consistent with most the readings of additives in your example.
I agree with bruce that its performance in multiple bench and actual in use tests is impressive and performance is the key and RLI's formulas perform consistently well!
Vis Index is incredible at near 200, show me oils that are that stable. It never varies even when severely damaged by aromatics ( fuel). For contrast Redline 5w40 yields 170 clean/ VOA.
The patented add pack is tricking your other readings leading you to the guesses you list as "maybes". Probably better to list only what your test revealed and not questions it cannot answer or confusion/obfuscation will exist.
Thanks again, Terry
Sample I have is NOT perhaps what you have seen, data is correct and verifed you know as well as I that batch varations and possible lab errors will move ALL the numbers around including VI and Vis. This 1 reason to always get a UOA by same lab if you want to trend an oil, batch to batch variation can be 10% or more.
The exact PPM of stuff is not a big deal only way to verify is to send me sample you have run already to verfy lab repeatability but IMHO is not a big deal if it is 16.7 or 16.1 or Copper is 205 or 252.
I do like some of the Non tradtional additives and do not care exact composion other than a peek at whats used.
Bye the way Chlor was run by me 4 times and without a larger sample I can NOT say for sure that there/is/was some interference by something a larger sample and more time would answer that but I'm happy with what I know now and will wait to see how well it works in the long run.
bruce
The exact PPM of stuff is not a big deal only way to verify is to send me sample you have run already to verfy lab repeatability but IMHO is not a big deal if it is 16.7 or 16.1 or Copper is 205 or 252.
I do like some of the Non tradtional additives and do not care exact composion other than a peek at whats used.
Bye the way Chlor was run by me 4 times and without a larger sample I can NOT say for sure that there/is/was some interference by something a larger sample and more time would answer that but I'm happy with what I know now and will wait to see how well it works in the long run.
bruce
unDummy, the way I understand things ( and remember I am a hired gun not an company insider), is that the significant advances in HOBS because of RECENT hybridization advances/improvements applies to all the formulas at RLI in the last year and a half or so. Lubricity and the patented add pack were always amazing, the stability over drain or use interval is what got my attention a while back and made the RLI products a cutting edge tool in the tribological tool box. For instance the HOBS BIOSYN ATF formula is about to be tested here in a Honda AT to see how it holds up. Because the improved HOBS adds such a capability over highly refined petroleum or syn alone, the hydraulic fluids are getting lots of attention with military, racing, and industrial applications all over the world.
The Audi project was troubling as I could not find ( affordably) the alternative to the failures of the "approved" oils, thus I engaged Bill Garmier and we have a wonderful answer at lower cost than say Motul or other boutique and expensive syns.
With your experience in AT repair I would not overlook the benefits of the current formulations or even looking at getting custom formulations from RLI or Bill Garmier.
This is US homegrown technology that is getting international attention. The faster we move off the mideast tit the better from my POV. RLI is a major step in that direction from what I can tell as a consultant.
Another point that needs to be reinforced is that no other company to date ( and most other veg based lubes projects have much more governmental support than RLI) has developed as complete a formula as RLI except Molakule's SF formulas that are currently unavailable.
Terry
The Audi project was troubling as I could not find ( affordably) the alternative to the failures of the "approved" oils, thus I engaged Bill Garmier and we have a wonderful answer at lower cost than say Motul or other boutique and expensive syns.
With your experience in AT repair I would not overlook the benefits of the current formulations or even looking at getting custom formulations from RLI or Bill Garmier.
This is US homegrown technology that is getting international attention. The faster we move off the mideast tit the better from my POV. RLI is a major step in that direction from what I can tell as a consultant.
Another point that needs to be reinforced is that no other company to date ( and most other veg based lubes projects have much more governmental support than RLI) has developed as complete a formula as RLI except Molakule's SF formulas that are currently unavailable.
Terry
buster, the pcmo oils contain less of a traditional add pack by design but wear control is consistent with the custom formulated 5w40 BIOSYN. The RS4 and DI engines act more like a diesel with the HP fuel being shot directly into the cylinder wall so I had to compensate for that almost like a diesel engine.
Guys if RLI's BIOSYN oils don't get your attention as BITOGER's then nothing will. You are looking into the future of lubes with these chemistries.
Guys if RLI's BIOSYN oils don't get your attention as BITOGER's then nothing will. You are looking into the future of lubes with these chemistries.
Maybe I overlooked it, but I dont remember anything specific regarding the oil keeping with the VW/Audi recommended drain intervals (10 000 miles).
Just wondering if this oil is able to go for that long, or will it have to be dumped prematurely?
Just wondering if this oil is able to go for that long, or will it have to be dumped prematurely?
I would forget whatever Audi says about the oil in this car as even their recommended oils don't cut it before you ever get to their OCI recommendation.
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