Don't understand benefit to UOA on factory fill

[ProfPS]

After reading many factory fill used oil analysis and low mileage used oil analysis did I realize the need for this discussion.

Please explain the benefits to having a used oil analysis on a factory fill or during the first 2-3 OCs. I don't see the value on these used oil analysis telling much about the crankcase oil since oil characteristics are going to be masked by metals and chemicals from the engine.

During the first 8-10k miles, used oil analysis metals are going to be high while internal parts wear and cure during the early stages of "breaking-in" an engine. Don't you want some wear in the engine when it is new? I know assembly tolerances are tighter, manufacturing quality assurance is much better, and oil quality is far superior than in the past. Engines are assembled by parts made by different manufacturers. Only when assembled will all the parts have to work together, moving internal parts, creating friction, and generating heat which oil works to combat and to flush away contaminates to be collected in the oil filter, and removed during an OC.

There is going to be wear, metals are going to expand and contract, along with chemicals being emitted when undergoing this "break-in" process. Engines needs operating time to become "one." I don't see how a used oil analysis on early OCs will warn the owner of a problem. If there is a problem, the owner will notice it by way of fluid checks, OCs, and driving.

I have a new car (now w/ 4k mi) and I am "on the fence" about doing a used oil analysis on oil that BITOGers have posted used oil analysis and who had very good results with mid-life and high-mileage engines, which is when I think used oil analysis are most valuable.

 

[Pablo]

Some people just do things out of curiosity. I don't think this spirit should be stifled. $20 down the tube? Maybe, but it's their money.

A couple more things - I HAVE seen REAL problems in factory fill used oil analysis that led to much quicker resolution. We have also see some interesting factory fills, verses what legend says an OM uses.

Also please move this thread - the goal in this forum is PURE used oil analysis and follow discussion of said used oil analysis. Not necessarily the wisdom of when.

 

[RI_RS4]

From my experience, early used oil analysis allow someone experienced in oil analysis to follow the wear-in trend. In some cases, there is nothing unusual going on, in which case you could argue that the analysis was not worth much, except piece of mind. In other cases, underlying engine issues become clear very early. And in other cases, several early used oil analysis will help later on in identifying when break-in is complete, by providing trend lines that can be followed over time.

In my case, early used oil analysis on the factory fill allowed Terry Dyson to identify a fuel dilution problem with the Audi RS4 direct injection engine, which we were able to follow, and develop a corrective action for. If I had waited until 10K or 15K miles, additional excessive early wear would have occurred, and we would not have developed an oil to mitigate the problem until later in the life of the engine.

What I often see are people on BITOG that assume when break-in has completed or has not completed, based on a paucity of good data. I'd argue that having additional data is valuable in developing trends for your engine, that can be followed over time.

 

[Bill in Utah]

I do it for 2 reasons.

1. If I have a problem, its documented early.

2. Trending.

I've always done 1-1.5k Oil changes on the factory fill and seem to have lower wear metals used oil analysis earlier than other used oil analysis with the same engine when they did not.

If you not trending your used oil analysis, then only get one about 10k miles before your warrenty runs out.

On my 320k Jetta, I've NEVER done one and its doing fine.

Take care, bill

 

[gwood]

Trending was my reason on the factory fill, that and it's just fun. I wasn't worried about the engine but I had some suspicsions that were looked into.

You aren't going to loose anything other than some time in terms of the trending/paper trail for the vehicle (that and some cash). If that isn't much of a concern than I think it makes sense for you to wait out the break in. Keep in mind that some engines are going to show wear patterns than don't stabilize for quite some time (I don't know what application you are dealing with...)

 

[JTK]

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Please explain the benefits to having a used oil analysis on a factory fill or during the first 2-3 OCs. I don't see the value on these used oil analysis telling much about the crankcase oil since oil characteristics are going to be masked by metals and chemicals from the engine.

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I'm with you there Pro-. To add to this, I also don't see the value in trending used oil analysis based on different oils run & dumped out of the same vehicle every 3-5Kmi? Not only are you intermixing slightly, the oil will still be fairly 'new' for most applications with that short a drain interval. I can see getting a used oil analysis on an oil after you used only that specific oil for the past ~2, 3, or more OCI's. Then again.. it's all for the fun and science of BITOG and I commend those who shell out the cash for the used oil analysis data!

Joel

 

[Mannix]

I dont understand the value of used oil analysis from the consumer point of view, period.

 

[mechtech2]

I'd rather get an oil change for the money.
Choose a good oil first.

 

[Bill in Utah]

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I dont understand the value of used oil analysis from the consumer point of view, period.

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I'd rather get an oil change for the money.
Choose a good oil first.

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Both of you don't get it.

Doing a used oil analysis SAVED me $1200. Using a "good oil"

will do you nothing.

Instead of explaining it for the 100th time, If you care to learn something, do a search in the used oil analysis for my name and you'll see the story.

Sorry to come off harsh, but...

 

[Bill in Utah]

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I also don't see the value in trending used oil analysis based on different oils run & dumped out of the same vehicle every 3-5Kmi? Not only are you intermixing slightly, the oil will still be fairly 'new' for most applications with that short a drain interval. I can see getting a used oil analysis on an oil after you used only that specific oil for the past ~2, 3, or more OCI's.

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To prove that this "mindset" of you HAVE to STAY with ONE brand of oil for the life of the engine is the ONLY way to have long life.

If intermixing brands of oils is sooo bad, how come people make 200k plus running any oil? If running different oils every oil change is bad for your engine, how come EVERY used oil analysis has low numbers.

I do it to trend to see if I have a problem, to catch it early and get it fixed BEFORE damage to the engine happens.

But when you have every used oil analysis come back with zeros and low single digits for every wear metal, life is good.

When you get to 200-300k with an engine that has had no problems, always passes smog, runs still ike new, life is even better.

Take care, bill

 

[nascarnation]

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I dont understand the value of used oil analysis from the consumer point of view, period.

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I think it's much more of a hobby/enthusiast thing here @ BITOG.

 

[RI_RS4]

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I dont understand the value of used oil analysis from the consumer point of view, period.

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A used oil analysis for an engine has the same value as a blood test for your body. And, just like a blood test, it is helpful to have an interpretation done by an expert. If all is well, you have piece of mind. If anything abnormal shows up in the lab work, then with the help of a professional, the proper corrective action (therapy) can be prescribed. A follow-up used oil analysis serves the same purpose as follow-up blood test.

Now, as a practical matter, you're going to keep your body until it falls apart. You don't get to trade it in for a new model. If you are one who always trades in a car for a newer model, before the manufacturer's warranty runs out, then you are absolutely right, there is no economic reason to justify performing oil analysis, since all repairs to the engine are performed under warranty. However, if you do want to keep your engine longer than the manufacturer's warranty, then there is a cost-benefit case to be made, that you can extend the life of your vehicle, and perform corrective maintenance prior to costly failures and repairs.

 

[JTK]

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..I do it to trend to see if I have a problem, to catch it early and get it fixed BEFORE damage to the engine happens...

Take care, bill

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I'm with you there Bill. Trending for the engine's sake and not necessarily for the oil. I just don't see how you can get valid and accurate data on an oil if you dump and fill with a different oil/filter combo every 3-5K.

Joel

 

[Triple_Se7en]

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Don't understand benefit to UOA on factory fill

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Coolant or fuel dilution checkup would be my #1 reason.

 

[JTK]

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A used oil analysis for an engine has the same value as a blood test for your body.

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Similar, but not the same. As far as I know, oil analysis equipment does not have to meed Food and Drug Administration standards. How do we know the equipment is even calibrated regularly? How do you know you're not getting someone else's sample mixed in with yours, or getting their data? I'm not bashing used oil analysis. At work, we get them done on our multi-million dollar compressor skids with massive oil sumps that cost huge dollars for an OCI. These used oil analysis cost a bit more than your ~$25 automotive ones though and follow agreed upon guidlines.

Joel

 

[kd5byb]

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Please explain the benefits to having a used oil analysis on a factory fill or during the first 2-3 OCs. I don't see the value on these used oil analysis telling much about the crankcase oil since oil characteristics are going to be masked by metals and chemicals from the engine.

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In the case of my new truck - sheer curiosity!

Specifically:

1) I wanted to get some idea of what Toyota put in there. Sure, wear metals mask some additives, but you still get the general picture.

Also helps settle the break-in oil myth or fan the fire, depending on your interpretation. In my case, the only thing weird was high moly, which was probably assembly lube.

2) To help settle the question of how long to go on first OCI. In my Tundra, I went 2,614 miles and the wear metals were high, but not astronomical. Probably could have gone 5k without problems. Some may disagree and think I changed too early. It's a data point to help BITOG'ers with new cars make up their minds when to do first OCI.

3) I also figure it's iron-clad proof of oil changes for warranty issues. If I plop down used oil analysis for my changes, think Toyota will challenge me if my 5.7 dies? I'd say no.

4) I get enjoyment out of it. Really, I'm a test engineer and it's fun to collect the sample, send it out, and get the report back. Beats lottery tickets!

thanks and 73,
ben

 

[mechtech2]

I DO get it.
I have a lifetime of vehicle experience, being paid to do so.
Have fun with used oil analysis. They can be a not so handy diagnostic tool.
But the streets of the United States are not littered with dead cars from lack of used oil analysis.
In fact, none at all.

 

[benjamming]

So mechtech2, you don't think any GM 3.1L engines died due to coolant gushing into the oil that would have been caught a whole lot earlier if a used oil analysis had been done?

 

[Bill in Utah]

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So mechtech2, you don't think any GM 3.1L engines died due to coolant gushing into the oil that would have been caught a whole lot earlier if a used oil analysis had been done?

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Of course not. None of them would have any issues if they run "good oil".

Bill

 

[ProfPS]

Thanks for the input; this supports why I felt this topic needed to be discussed and not just accepted. Your points are well taken in identifying a few select problems early, but if Joe consumer brings this to a dealer's service rep for a warranty issue, they will poo-poo it off and wait for the warranty to expire. Then they will recognaize that there is a problem when it is on Joe consumer's dime. As for metals, there are few parts that wear can be directed diagnosed from a used oil analysis. All others you cannot differentiate one metal part from another because of the many iron and aluminum parts inside an engine.