A these corrosion control chemicals bad for humans ?
Don't drink the water!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't put the governor in the clear. But I do question the wisdom of the local leaders who allowed their circumstance to get so bad that they had to turn to outside help.
I question the honesty of those blaming the governor of one party when the manager appointed was of the other party. The same party as those who blame the governor.
The issue ended up in the governor's lap because of the failures by the local leaders.
Had they done their job in the first place, the governor and the managers appointed would never been in the picture.
But because of the local failures, Flint had to seek help from the state capitol.
Who has more interest in things going well, the local leaders or a remote leader?
Make sure you have competent local leaders is the take-away here. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of relative outsiders with little or no vested interest in your success.
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gotta quit watching MSNBC...
That's cute, considering you cite The National Review, a media outlet who doesn't ever *try* to hide their bias. Maybe I should start citing Gawker as a fair and balanced (see what I did there) news outlet.
Besides that, your National Review article AGREES with me:
Quote:
So while those who fault Governor Snyder are not entirely wrong,
Unlike others here who would completely put the governor in the clear, even your source says he shoulders some of the fault.
I also like the redirection toward Flint's financial problems instead of the water problems. If you can't argue the state blew it, shift focus.
Here's another fact, one that was highlighted when Michigan's governor released all (but not really all) of his emails.
On March 15th, Veolia North America returned the results of a study commissioned by the City of Flint. Remember, Veolia was brought on as an expert to study and solve these issues. Their recommendation was to spend $50,000 on corrosion control chemicals. In hindsight, that was a really good idea. Interestingly, the study was only commissioned because of the color and odor of the water, so any toxins leaching into the water were not studied or reported. Again, hindsight, but it doesn't seem like so much of a stretch to think if corrosion that was causing discoloration and smell could cause something worse.
Anyway, the real curious part is who this study was addressed to when it was complete. It wasn't addressed to the city, it was addressed directly to the emergency manage. See, even the consultant operated with the understanding that nothing happened without the emergency managers approval. He controlled the flow of money and he was the ultimate decision maker on what was addressed and what was not.
Unfortunately, corrosion control was not addressed.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi...ntrol/79119240/
I question the honesty of those blaming the governor of one party when the manager appointed was of the other party. The same party as those who blame the governor.
The issue ended up in the governor's lap because of the failures by the local leaders.
Had they done their job in the first place, the governor and the managers appointed would never been in the picture.
But because of the local failures, Flint had to seek help from the state capitol.
Who has more interest in things going well, the local leaders or a remote leader?
Make sure you have competent local leaders is the take-away here. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of relative outsiders with little or no vested interest in your success.
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gotta quit watching MSNBC...
That's cute, considering you cite The National Review, a media outlet who doesn't ever *try* to hide their bias. Maybe I should start citing Gawker as a fair and balanced (see what I did there) news outlet.
Besides that, your National Review article AGREES with me:
Quote:
So while those who fault Governor Snyder are not entirely wrong,
Unlike others here who would completely put the governor in the clear, even your source says he shoulders some of the fault.
I also like the redirection toward Flint's financial problems instead of the water problems. If you can't argue the state blew it, shift focus.
Here's another fact, one that was highlighted when Michigan's governor released all (but not really all) of his emails.
On March 15th, Veolia North America returned the results of a study commissioned by the City of Flint. Remember, Veolia was brought on as an expert to study and solve these issues. Their recommendation was to spend $50,000 on corrosion control chemicals. In hindsight, that was a really good idea. Interestingly, the study was only commissioned because of the color and odor of the water, so any toxins leaching into the water were not studied or reported. Again, hindsight, but it doesn't seem like so much of a stretch to think if corrosion that was causing discoloration and smell could cause something worse.
Anyway, the real curious part is who this study was addressed to when it was complete. It wasn't addressed to the city, it was addressed directly to the emergency manage. See, even the consultant operated with the understanding that nothing happened without the emergency managers approval. He controlled the flow of money and he was the ultimate decision maker on what was addressed and what was not.
Unfortunately, corrosion control was not addressed.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi...ntrol/79119240/
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gotta quit watching MSNBC...
That's cute, considering you cite The National Review, a media outlet who doesn't ever *try* to hide their bias. Maybe I should start citing Gawker as a fair and balanced (see what I did there) news outlet.
Besides that, your National Review article AGREES with me:
Quote:
So while those who fault Governor Snyder are not entirely wrong,
Unlike others here who would completely put the governor in the clear, even your source says he shoulders some of the fault.
I also like the redirection toward Flint's financial problems instead of the water problems. If you can't argue the state blew it, shift focus.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi...ntrol/79119240/
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Gotta quit watching MSNBC...
That's cute, considering you cite The National Review, a media outlet who doesn't ever *try* to hide their bias. Maybe I should start citing Gawker as a fair and balanced (see what I did there) news outlet.
Besides that, your National Review article AGREES with me:
Quote:
So while those who fault Governor Snyder are not entirely wrong,
Unlike others here who would completely put the governor in the clear, even your source says he shoulders some of the fault.
I also like the redirection toward Flint's financial problems instead of the water problems. If you can't argue the state blew it, shift focus.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi...ntrol/79119240/
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
A these corrosion control chemicals bad for humans ?
The science is clear that the small amounts required to adjust the water are generally not harmful.
What that means is only a few folks will be affected. To me that is still unacceptable but water must be delivered to the folks....
A these corrosion control chemicals bad for humans ?
The science is clear that the small amounts required to adjust the water are generally not harmful.
What that means is only a few folks will be affected. To me that is still unacceptable but water must be delivered to the folks....
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Why are you so supremely bent on the politics of this matter?
I have not once mentioned any political affiliation. You did in your very first post. You mentioned it in your next post. You mention it in this post. You keep dragging politics and political affiliation back into this.
IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICS!
I don't think the governor holds some responsibility because he's a republication. I think the governor holds some responsibility because he's the one who appointed the emergency managers, he's the one they report to, and they're the ones who blew it more than anybody else.
Yeah, one of the EMs was a democrat (and former mayor of Flint). So what. I don't care about that either. HE BLEW IT!
Lets explore what the EPA did in April:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/po...water/78719620/
Quote:
Starting with inquiries made in February, the federal agency battled Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality behind the scenes for at least six months over whether Flint needed to use chemical treatments to keep lead lines and plumbing connections from leaching into drinking water. The EPA did not publicize its concern that Flint residents’ health was jeopardized by the state’s insistence that such controls were not required by law.
Instead of moving quickly to verify the concerns or take preventative measures, federal officials opted to prod the DEQ to act, EPA Region 5 Administrator Susan Hedman told The Detroit News this week. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action, but it wasn’t completed until November.
The state didn’t agree to apply corrosion controls until late July and didn’t publicly concede until October that it erroneously applied the federal Lead and Copper Rule overseeing water quality.
Break it down... the EPA knew and was trying to get the Michigan DEQ to actually do something about it. The DEQ sat on it's hands and eventually conceded that it screwed up with how they applied the rules. That is completely on the DEQ, not the EPA.
The EPA didn't publicize their battle with the DEQ. Bad choice at this juncture. Herman stepped down over that one.
But who cares about what the EPA knew in April, 2015. Anyone who watched the news knew there was something going on with Flint water. We all knew it in April, 2014. GM knew it in 2014. The EM and the DEQ knew about it in 2014.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source.
It's called scope. Blaming this catastrophe on the sins of years past is nothing but a scapegoat and you know it. This is you making it political and trying to tie it to the other party.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
Except Flint isn't the only city trying to reduce the cost of water. Cities and townships that are not having financial troubles are doing the exact same thing in trying to tie up with the Karegnondi Water Authority.
With that, your argument that this is all because Flint is poor falls apart. Detroit water is expensive. Everyone in SE Michigan knows this. I know this because I write them a check every month. I would expect *any* community to try and reasonably reduce cost. Tying up with the KWA was, and still is, a good idea. That is one thing that the State, the Flint city council, and I all agree on.
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Why are you so supremely bent on the politics of this matter?
I have not once mentioned any political affiliation. You did in your very first post. You mentioned it in your next post. You mention it in this post. You keep dragging politics and political affiliation back into this.
IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICS!
I don't think the governor holds some responsibility because he's a republication. I think the governor holds some responsibility because he's the one who appointed the emergency managers, he's the one they report to, and they're the ones who blew it more than anybody else.
Yeah, one of the EMs was a democrat (and former mayor of Flint). So what. I don't care about that either. HE BLEW IT!
Lets explore what the EPA did in April:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/po...water/78719620/
Quote:
Starting with inquiries made in February, the federal agency battled Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality behind the scenes for at least six months over whether Flint needed to use chemical treatments to keep lead lines and plumbing connections from leaching into drinking water. The EPA did not publicize its concern that Flint residents’ health was jeopardized by the state’s insistence that such controls were not required by law.
Instead of moving quickly to verify the concerns or take preventative measures, federal officials opted to prod the DEQ to act, EPA Region 5 Administrator Susan Hedman told The Detroit News this week. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action, but it wasn’t completed until November.
The state didn’t agree to apply corrosion controls until late July and didn’t publicly concede until October that it erroneously applied the federal Lead and Copper Rule overseeing water quality.
Break it down... the EPA knew and was trying to get the Michigan DEQ to actually do something about it. The DEQ sat on it's hands and eventually conceded that it screwed up with how they applied the rules. That is completely on the DEQ, not the EPA.
The EPA didn't publicize their battle with the DEQ. Bad choice at this juncture. Herman stepped down over that one.
But who cares about what the EPA knew in April, 2015. Anyone who watched the news knew there was something going on with Flint water. We all knew it in April, 2014. GM knew it in 2014. The EM and the DEQ knew about it in 2014.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source.
It's called scope. Blaming this catastrophe on the sins of years past is nothing but a scapegoat and you know it. This is you making it political and trying to tie it to the other party.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
Except Flint isn't the only city trying to reduce the cost of water. Cities and townships that are not having financial troubles are doing the exact same thing in trying to tie up with the Karegnondi Water Authority.
With that, your argument that this is all because Flint is poor falls apart. Detroit water is expensive. Everyone in SE Michigan knows this. I know this because I write them a check every month. I would expect *any* community to try and reasonably reduce cost. Tying up with the KWA was, and still is, a good idea. That is one thing that the State, the Flint city council, and I all agree on.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
I don't put the governor in the clear.
I don't put local leaders in the clear either, I just blame them less. I do think that they tried to pull up before the whole thing ended up a smoldering heap, but their efforts were stymied by the EM and the DEQ.
I don't put the governor in the clear.
I don't put local leaders in the clear either, I just blame them less. I do think that they tried to pull up before the whole thing ended up a smoldering heap, but their efforts were stymied by the EM and the DEQ.
I would blame the local leaders the most. This is their primary responsibility and they failed. They allowed the city to run into the ground and had to be bailed out by the state.
You keep saying their efforts were stymied by the EM and the DEQ. So are you saying the local leaders said they needed the anti-corrosion additives and the EM said no?
Because I expect the local leaders to know best about the condition of the municipal water delivery infrastructure and what was required of the water being delivered. They had to know the water from the river was more corrosive as GM didn't want that water, driving the switch to Detroit sourced water. So going back to the local river source, the local team has to know what they need to do to use that water given the state of the pipes in the ground.
So did they recommend the anti-corrosion treatment, only to be shut down by the EM. Or did they fail to specify the correct anti-corrosion treatment?
You keep saying their efforts were stymied by the EM and the DEQ. So are you saying the local leaders said they needed the anti-corrosion additives and the EM said no?
Because I expect the local leaders to know best about the condition of the municipal water delivery infrastructure and what was required of the water being delivered. They had to know the water from the river was more corrosive as GM didn't want that water, driving the switch to Detroit sourced water. So going back to the local river source, the local team has to know what they need to do to use that water given the state of the pipes in the ground.
So did they recommend the anti-corrosion treatment, only to be shut down by the EM. Or did they fail to specify the correct anti-corrosion treatment?
I visited Autoworld for my birthday...
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Why are you so supremely bent on the politics of this matter?
I have not once mentioned any political affiliation. You did in your very first post. You mentioned it in your next post. You mention it in this post. You keep dragging politics and political affiliation back into this.
IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICS!
I don't think the governor holds some responsibility because he's a republication. I think the governor holds some responsibility because he's the one who appointed the emergency managers, he's the one they report to, and they're the ones who blew it more than anybody else.
Yeah, one of the EMs was a democrat (and former mayor of Flint). So what. I don't care about that either. HE BLEW IT!
Lets explore what the EPA did in April:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/po...water/78719620/
Quote:
Starting with inquiries made in February, the federal agency battled Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality behind the scenes for at least six months over whether Flint needed to use chemical treatments to keep lead lines and plumbing connections from leaching into drinking water. The EPA did not publicize its concern that Flint residents’ health was jeopardized by the state’s insistence that such controls were not required by law.
Instead of moving quickly to verify the concerns or take preventative measures, federal officials opted to prod the DEQ to act, EPA Region 5 Administrator Susan Hedman told The Detroit News this week. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action, but it wasn’t completed until November.
The state didn’t agree to apply corrosion controls until late July and didn’t publicly concede until October that it erroneously applied the federal Lead and Copper Rule overseeing water quality.
Break it down... the EPA knew and was trying to get the Michigan DEQ to actually do something about it. The DEQ sat on it's hands and eventually conceded that it screwed up with how they applied the rules. That is completely on the DEQ, not the EPA.
The EPA didn't publicize their battle with the DEQ. Bad choice at this juncture. Herman stepped down over that one.
But who cares about what the EPA knew in April, 2015. Anyone who watched the news knew there was something going on with Flint water. We all knew it in April, 2014. GM knew it in 2014. The EM and the DEQ knew about it in 2014.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source.
It's called scope. Blaming this catastrophe on the sins of years past is nothing but a scapegoat and you know it. This is you making it political and trying to tie it to the other party.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
Except Flint isn't the only city trying to reduce the cost of water. Cities and townships that are not having financial troubles are doing the exact same thing in trying to tie up with the Karegnondi Water Authority.
With that, your argument that this is all because Flint is poor falls apart. Detroit water is expensive. Everyone in SE Michigan knows this. I know this because I write them a check every month. I would expect *any* community to try and reasonably reduce cost. Tying up with the KWA was, and still is, a good idea. That is one thing that the State, the Flint city council, and I all agree on.
If the gov was democat instead of a re-pubicCan, same answer, it is a criminal act and it does not matter which party he is holding his ankles for, he is guilty at the end of the day.
Sorry facts do bother us, but let try a few facts:
A local physician did blood analysis on young patients and found mucho lead, took concern all the way up to Sly-Hider (Gov), he went on record to say She (the doc) did not know what the heck she is talking about.
I put my fellow citizens first, don't let em divide and conquer us.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source. The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
I also note the current Governor has not dodged this at all, and is standing straight up in front of everyone and stating he owns it and is going to see it corrected.
Wish his predecessors were as gutsy. He's in a real crack here.
While you're discounting any conservative views why haven't you commented on the EPA which knew of this issue in APRIL?
Why are you so supremely bent on the politics of this matter?
I have not once mentioned any political affiliation. You did in your very first post. You mentioned it in your next post. You mention it in this post. You keep dragging politics and political affiliation back into this.
IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICS!
I don't think the governor holds some responsibility because he's a republication. I think the governor holds some responsibility because he's the one who appointed the emergency managers, he's the one they report to, and they're the ones who blew it more than anybody else.
Yeah, one of the EMs was a democrat (and former mayor of Flint). So what. I don't care about that either. HE BLEW IT!
Lets explore what the EPA did in April:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/po...water/78719620/
Quote:
Starting with inquiries made in February, the federal agency battled Michigan’s Department of Environmental Quality behind the scenes for at least six months over whether Flint needed to use chemical treatments to keep lead lines and plumbing connections from leaching into drinking water. The EPA did not publicize its concern that Flint residents’ health was jeopardized by the state’s insistence that such controls were not required by law.
Instead of moving quickly to verify the concerns or take preventative measures, federal officials opted to prod the DEQ to act, EPA Region 5 Administrator Susan Hedman told The Detroit News this week. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force action, but it wasn’t completed until November.
The state didn’t agree to apply corrosion controls until late July and didn’t publicly concede until October that it erroneously applied the federal Lead and Copper Rule overseeing water quality.
Break it down... the EPA knew and was trying to get the Michigan DEQ to actually do something about it. The DEQ sat on it's hands and eventually conceded that it screwed up with how they applied the rules. That is completely on the DEQ, not the EPA.
The EPA didn't publicize their battle with the DEQ. Bad choice at this juncture. Herman stepped down over that one.
But who cares about what the EPA knew in April, 2015. Anyone who watched the news knew there was something going on with Flint water. We all knew it in April, 2014. GM knew it in 2014. The EM and the DEQ knew about it in 2014.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You cannot ignore the financial issues caused directly by poor management of funds tied directly to the many previous liberal governments in Flint, no matter the news source.
It's called scope. Blaming this catastrophe on the sins of years past is nothing but a scapegoat and you know it. This is you making it political and trying to tie it to the other party.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The money WAS THE ENTIRE REASON given for switching the water. The City is broke, like many other local governments, due to financial mismanagement. These are all verifiable from other sources than the National Review.
Except Flint isn't the only city trying to reduce the cost of water. Cities and townships that are not having financial troubles are doing the exact same thing in trying to tie up with the Karegnondi Water Authority.
With that, your argument that this is all because Flint is poor falls apart. Detroit water is expensive. Everyone in SE Michigan knows this. I know this because I write them a check every month. I would expect *any* community to try and reasonably reduce cost. Tying up with the KWA was, and still is, a good idea. That is one thing that the State, the Flint city council, and I all agree on.
If the gov was democat instead of a re-pubicCan, same answer, it is a criminal act and it does not matter which party he is holding his ankles for, he is guilty at the end of the day.
Sorry facts do bother us, but let try a few facts:
A local physician did blood analysis on young patients and found mucho lead, took concern all the way up to Sly-Hider (Gov), he went on record to say She (the doc) did not know what the heck she is talking about.
I put my fellow citizens first, don't let em divide and conquer us.
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