Don’t Believe Everything About Supplements

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Originally Posted By: greenjp
Steve it sounds like you have a very absolute world view when it comes to this subject. Are you willing to acknowledge that it's not as black and white as you're portraying it here? I mean, of course it's about the money - everything is. That's the basis of our society and in case you haven't noticed the "pursuit of happiness" or profit motive or whatever you want to call it is behind pretty much everything that has improved man's quality of life over the years. That doesn't mean that the results of that pursuit are all somehow invalid or tainted. Or are you really saying that no commercially produced pharmaceuticals are legitimate?

jeff


Absolutely not. My wife is in the medical field. There can be no doubt that some types of medicines have been great for the human race. But thousands of people die every year directly due to prescription drugs. There are no statistics to support any comparable claim about vitamins/herbs, etc.

The simple fact is that the "money" is exactly why no plant, herb, or vitamin will ever be studied extensively. There's not enough potential profits there. The AMA is a closed shop. They have an obvious agenda, and the few doctors who have stepped over the line into natural medicines are persecuted extensively.

And the FDA wants control over the vitamin industry. That's why this topic is hot. They start the campaign for public opinion this way, because in our country the special interests get exactly what they want from the government. That's not conspiracy 'theory', that's how our Congress works.

Follow the money.
 
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Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Excessive intake of Vitamins may shorten life.
Quote:
When it comes to vitamins, it appears you could have too much of a good thing, say researchers who report a link between their use and higher death rates among older women.




I think excessive intake of [insert item here] may shorten life. How long do you think Charlie Sheen will live?

John
 
Originally Posted By: John_K
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Excessive intake of Vitamins may shorten life.
Quote:
When it comes to vitamins, it appears you could have too much of a good thing, say researchers who report a link between their use and higher death rates among older women.




I think excessive intake of [insert item here] may shorten life. How long do you think Charlie Sheen will live?

John


The conventional wisdom has been that excessive vitamin intake is OK. New evidence says that that might not be so true.
 
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: John_K
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Excessive intake of Vitamins may shorten life.
Quote:
When it comes to vitamins, it appears you could have too much of a good thing, say researchers who report a link between their use and higher death rates among older women.




I think excessive intake of [insert item here] may shorten life. How long do you think Charlie Sheen will live?

John


The conventional wisdom has been that excessive vitamin intake is OK. New evidence says that that might not be so true.


But suppliment != excessive.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
. But thousands of people die every year directly due to prescription drugs. There are no statistics to support any comparable claim about vitamins/herbs, etc.

Ummm but millions would die without them. I hate when these far out statements come up.

Like the vaccine conspiracy.
 
^^^ your conjecture, not mine. I hate it when people ignore the facts plain in front of their face. You seem to be much better than me at bringing up pure [censored], like the vaccine comment. Can't argue with you. I'm not trying to change your mind, but you seem determined to beat me down with baloney. But my life is my own, just as yours is yours.

Your own case is a great example for me. It's why I will continue to take my 'extras' every day. There's not a single male in my family over 50 that hasn't had a heart attack or some sort of cardiac event or stroke.

Except me. Normal BP, nice lipids, excellent blood sugar, etc. My doctor said it all was quite good, and his exact words were 'whatever you're doing, keep doing it'. BTW, he's 70 and takes LOTS of supplements!
 
I'm an exercise scientist, and although my specialty area is biomechanics, I know a lot about exercise physiology and sports nutrition. I have supplemented (no pun intended) my bimoechanics research with nutrition research on occasion simply because I find it interesting.

I find the current conversation interesting, and somewhat alarming.

Here is one question: what is the main thing doctors tell nearly everyone to do more of?......




Exercise!

What those opposing any supplements, either because they think they are ineffective or not needed to get RDA amounts of nutrients, need to understand that RDA values are the minimal amount the government thinks is needed to avoid deficiency is a healthy, but relatively inactive, person. Often RDA values are lower than what current science would suggest is appropriate for this population. The FDA is constantly adjusting its RDA values, and almost always they adjust them upward.

The thing is, with exercise (nevermind actual athletes) the requirements for nearly every vitamin, mineral, and amino acid go up. So RDA values, which are not adequate to begin with in many cases for inactive people, are certainly not adequate for active exercisers or atheltes.

Sure, some supplements don't do much, if anything, and can be harmful if taken in too high of quantities (Vitamin A, for example). Carnitine has been touted as helping with beta oxidation, and it does, but supplementation doesn't help anything according to the science.

But many supplements do work, and are even necessary considering the loss of vitamins through soil depletion, transportation, and cooking. Vitamin C is one. Glutamine. Creatine (may help prevent cancer and help with MS, besides its benefits for athletes). Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. Glucosamine. Calcium. There are many others that are beneficial for most people to take on a regular basis. And many other things that help with specific conditions/symptoms that can be taken on an as needed basis.

As to supplements being unsafe, companies still have to answer to HHS and the the FTC. But some do contain better quality ingredients than others, just like the T-bone from your private local butcher is probably better quality than the one you get from Wal-Mart. One-A-Day vitamins are not the quality of Usana. One needs to be a good consumer.

For some to make blanket statements that all supplements are unneeded or ineffective shows considerable ignorance and bias. This is especially true given the free resources (Pubmed and Google Scholar) available to everyone via the internet.
 
Natural medicines I have some faith in, but the ones that I see the infomercials on that if you were to believe they would cure most illnesses. Those are the ones that I have more of an issue with. Some when they are questioned more realize that they also made lifestyle changes or because of family history will be more aware of their lifestyle and adjust. My wife's family has a history of cancer, except thank God, for her. Is it because of something that she has done different or just simply she just happened to be the lucky one? I know of people that smoke like a house afire, but never got cancer. Just because they take lots of supplements doesn't mean that it helped. It could also mean that they come a family that has a long history of long lives. Some just read too much into the idea that the supplement did the trick, and sometimes they have, but not the whole picture. If they did what they imply that they would the testing would pay for itself in short order and they could make a killing, so I don't buy that excuse. Instead I would tend to believe that they know that if an independent testing were done that there was any real differences because of the supplement.
 
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Take Vitamin D for instance. MANY people are very low in Vitamin D and don't even know it.

My wife for example. She needs to take 2,000 IU's daily as she has less than 1/3 of the "minimum" of the range.

Several supplements have made her life so much better. So, supplements are still a bad idea? Really?
 
Never said that all supplements are a bad idea, but I did say that the ones that claim to cure almost everything probably are and for that matter sometimes some supplements aren't even really needed. Now in your case sure, but that evidently was a situation that was found and corrected by supplements. Some however have gotten sick because of taking supplements they didn't need.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Your own case is a great example for me.

I am 65 weigh 139, can exercise on a treadmill set at 15 degrees at 2.7mph with no practical limit., am probably 95% percentile on being fit. No heart problems. BP is 115/65 (or lower).
I can put a couple 9 minute miles together if needed.

But remember this is the internet..I cold tell you anything and vice versa


How old are you again.
 
Speaking of the harm prescriptions potentially cause and how they are marketing, Nightline news just came on with the story about Bayer's YAZ birth control pill. This young nurse was in a coma for 2 weeks and lost her sight after taking it.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You may have missed the point.

I respect your right to choose.

But this thread concerns taking away my right to choose.

Actually its more about protecting the gullible as well as kids who's parents would turn to this nonsense rather than giving their kids proper medical attention.

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And have you researched how many deaths last year were attributed to prescription drugs? No one knows how long ANYONE is going to live, there are no guaranteed outcomes in medicine.

How many are due to alternative therapies?

Here let me help you. Its impossible to quantify for two reasons. Most supplements are nothing but snake oil and cause no harm. The real harm is using to them to treat conditions that require actual medical intervention and those that die from chasing the claims of a snake oil salesman. But those deaths can't be directly attributed to the snakeoil since it wasn't technically the snake oil that killed them... it was the lack of proper medical treatment.

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No problem at all with your choices here, just your presuming that others do not enjoy your level of perceptiveness and intelligence because we choose differently. You may be wrong.

Now that is priceless.

Hey who remembers Jim Fixx? Health and exercise nut who dropped dead at age 52 of a heart attack with blockages of 95%, 85%, and 70% in the three main coronary arteries?

What most people choose to ignore or fail to recognize is that long term physical health is about 50% genetics. You can have someone like Fixx who eats right and exercises daily and drops dead at 52 or you can have the 101 year old man who's daily diet includes booze and tobacco.

The people that claim "I took supplements XYZ for years and look at me I'm as healthy as a horse" aren't healthier than others because of the supplements. They simply drew the straight flush in the genetic lottery.

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Your own case is a great example for me. It's why I will continue to take my 'extras' every day. There's not a single male in my family over 50 that hasn't had a heart attack or some sort of cardiac event or stroke.

Except me. Normal BP, nice lipids, excellent blood sugar, etc. My doctor said it all was quite good, and his exact words were 'whatever you're doing, keep doing it'. BTW, he's 70 and takes LOTS of supplements!

Congrats you drew the royal flush in the genetic lottery.

Counterexample. My grandfather lived to age 87. He worked on the railroad for years smoking 5+ packs a day and owned a tavern. His diet wouldn't have been consider well balanced and after her retired from the railroad he didn't engage in regular exercise of any kind. What killed him was a blow to the head from a fall that caused a Parkinson's like disorder that eventually led to loss of involuntary muscular control of his throat and constriction of his esophagus and airways.

I also drew a lucky hand in the genetic lottery. Regardless of my weight, diet, or exercise levels (which have varied widely over the years) my BP is rock solid at 118/78 and my cholesterol levels are superb.

I take no medications related to any heart conditions, though I do take other meds... oh no I better stop those! They're killing MEEEEE!!!!!

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Speaking of the harm prescriptions potentially cause and how they are marketing, Nightline news just came on with the story about Bayer's YAZ birth control pill. This young nurse was in a coma for 2 weeks and lost her sight after taking it.

Leaving my house causes me potential harm in the form of:
- car accidents
- work related injury/death
- the occasional mugger who may have no qualms about escalating his activities to homicide

Staying in my house can cause me potential harm in the form of:
- carbon monoxide poisoning if my furnace or water heater vents decide to go haywire
- radon exposure if my sub-foundation radon mitigation system malfunctions
- falling down the steps from the 2nd to 1st floor, or 1st floor to basement
- slipping in the bathtub, knocking myself unconscious, and drowning in 3 inches of water
- the occasional B&E perp who decides escalating to a homicide is okay with him

This just in... living will kill you.

Top 15 causes of death in US (2007 most recent complete data set):
1. Diseases of heart (heart disease)
2. Malignant neoplasms (cancer)
3. Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke)
4. Chronic lower respiratory diseases
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries)
6. Alzheimer’s disease
7. Diabetes mellitus (diabetes)
8. Influenza and pneumonia
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidney disease)
10. Septicemia
11. Intentional self-harm (suicide)
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13. Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension)
14. Parkinson’s disease
15. Assault (homicide)
 
I do weight training and cardio 4 times a week.I take a multivitamin twice a day,along with glutamine,creatine,fish oil capsules and glucosamine.Also take 2 protein shakes a day.

Yup,I take supplements and am healthy as a horse.Anybody who thinks supplements are a waste of money,thats your choice.Wanna compare health stats,come join me at the gym or the doctors office,we'll compare anything you wish to compare,I'm ready,hope you are.
 
Originally Posted By: DragRace
I do weight training and cardio 4 times a week.I take a multivitamin twice a day,along with glutamine,creatine,fish oil capsules and glucosamine.Also take 2 protein shakes a day.

Yup,I take supplements and am healthy as a horse.Anybody who thinks supplements are a waste of money,thats your choice.Wanna compare health stats,come join me at the gym or the doctors office,we'll compare anything you wish to compare,I'm ready,hope you are.

You're a poster boy for the target market for supplement makers.

Drop the supplements and continue the exercise and for some reason I have this sneaking suspicion that your "health stats" would remain the same. You could also replace the protein shakes with low-fat (and for the salt conscious, low sodium) cottage cheese and get the same result.

If you drop dead at 55 from a heart attack (like old Mr. Fixx) do we get to blame the supplements then? Or do we point our fingers at the underlying genetic factors?

Quote:

Does creatine increase muscle mass?

Although creatine is generally used as a supplement for short, intense activity, athletes to increase muscle mass often use it. Many studies and advertisements claim that creatine increases muscle mass; however, Clarkson and Rawson (1999) and Williams and Branch (1998) point out that although there is the possibility of new muscle protein, this gain is most likely due to water retention inside the muscle.


Quote:

Glutamine
Overview:

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid (building block of protein) in the body. The body can make enough glutamine for its regular needs, but extreme stress (the kind you would experience after very heavy exercise or an injury), your body may need more glutamine than it can make. Most glutamine is stored in muscles followed by the lungs, where much of the glutamine is made.

Glutamine is important for removing excess ammonia (a common waste product in the body). It also helps your immune system function and appears to be needed for normal brain function and digestion.

You can usually get enough glutamine without taking a supplement, because your body makes it and you get some in your diet. Certain medical conditions, including injuries, surgery, infections, and prolonged stress, can lower glutamine levels, however. In these cases, taking a glutamine supplement may be helpful.


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Dangers of glucosamine

Clinical studies have consistently reported that glucosamine appears safe. However, a recent Université Laval study shows that people taking glucosamine tend to go beyond recommended guidelines, as they do not feel any positive effects from the drug. Beyond recommended dosages, researchers found in preliminary studies that glucosamine may damage pancreatic cells, possibly increasing the risk of developing diabetes.[35]
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Speaking of the harm prescriptions potentially cause and how they are marketing, Nightline news just came on with the story about Bayer's YAZ birth control pill. This young nurse was in a coma for 2 weeks and lost her sight after taking it.

I actually heard that yesterday someone died in a car accident.
 
Quote:Prescription drugs as a whole are killing far more Floridians than illegal drugs, with some 8,600 deaths last year involving at least one prescription drug, according to an annual report released today by the Florida Medical Examiners Commission.

Quote:Deaths tied to prescription drug overdoses have doubled in the last decade and now outnumber traffic fatalities for the first time since the government started tracking drug-induced deaths in 1979, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

(that one is for Al)^^^

The Times analysis also found that deaths from prescription drugs tripled nationwide from 2000 to 2008, exceeding deaths from cocaine and heroin combined. Drug-related deaths reached an all time high in 2009, killing at least 37,485 people — about one every 14 minutes.

Quote:Death by vitamin poisoning appears to be quite uncommon in the US, typically none in a given year.

All found in seconds on google. I'm sure these won't meet anyone's rigorous standards for accuracy!

Think I'll stick with supplements. You still get to keep doing whatever you want.
 
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Buickman, I suggest you refer to the ISSN's researchers regarding creatine and glucosamine. If you don't know what the ISSN is, you have no business talking about creatine, clutamine, and glucosamine as if you know something about them.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Quote:Deaths tied to prescription drug overdoses have doubled in the last decade and now outnumber traffic fatalities for the first time since the government started tracking drug-induced deaths in 1979, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Well since you haven't broken it down..how many of these "Prescription Drugs" have actually killed (not involved) people who were correctly taking their own legally obtained drugs?...crickets....thought so....thanks. Oh yea and how many were saved bc of legally obtained, correctly taken drugs...crickets....thought so..thanks. And what was the ratio of deaths vs benefits of legally obtained, correctly taken drugs..1000:1 10,000 to one????


Quote:
The Times analysis also found that deaths from prescription drugs tripled nationwide from 2000 to 2008, exceeding deaths from cocaine and heroin combined. Drug-related deaths reached an all time high in 2009, killing at least 37,485 people — about one every 14 minutes.


See above. And remember Fla. is the state where people can't understand a paper ballot.

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:Death by vitamin poisoning appears to be quite uncommon in the US, typically none in a given year.

But again death resulting by taking snake oils vs prescription drugs is unknown.

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All found in seconds on google. I'm sure these won't meet anyone's rigorous standards for accuracy!

Since I haven't seen the exact reference..you are correct.

Oh yea..how many people are killed in theU.S by vehicles??
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You may have missed the point.

I respect your right to choose.

But this thread concerns taking away my right to choose. That's the real issue. And they will use many of the same arguments you did. Despite what you may believe, we all have a right to choose our own health care. Very basic stuff.

And have you researched how many deaths last year were attributed to prescription drugs? No one knows how long ANYONE is going to live, there are no guaranteed outcomes in medicine.

No problem at all with your choices here, just your presuming that others do not enjoy your level of perceptiveness and intelligence because we choose differently. You may be wrong.


+1


I've been making changes like these in my lifestyle. As long as that person is dedicated to being as healthy as they can be-it works for me.
 
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