Done with manual trans.
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Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Much of that describes my 1994 Geo Prizm. It did have power brakes and power steering. But none of the other power goodies you mention.
I did have a power sunroof. Odd, but I guess that's the only way sunroofs were installed in that car.
The nice thing was, there wasn't much to break on that car.
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Much of that describes my 1994 Geo Prizm. It did have power brakes and power steering. But none of the other power goodies you mention.
I did have a power sunroof. Odd, but I guess that's the only way sunroofs were installed in that car.
The nice thing was, there wasn't much to break on that car.
Originally Posted By: nitwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
You assume, incorrectly, that manual transmissions are primitive. In fact it is their simplicity that make them superior, in my opinion and in the minds of many of my compatriots.
Some day there may be a consensus regarding the perfect transmission. It won't be conventional automatic with torque convertor, and it won't be a continuously variable transmission (CVT) -- these are not modern inventions, they have been around since the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps the auto-shifting manual transmissions such as the direct-shift gearbox (DSG) will become the consensus choice -- if their transmission control modules (TCM) are ever perfected for every driver and every driving condition.
But until then there is only one transmission design that can ensure that the vehicle is always in the exact gear that the driver wants to be in. It is impossible to imagine any transmission more efficient than a modern 5- or 6-speed manual transmission, in the hands of a skilled operator.
And maybe that is the real issue. A manual transmission requires a little effort and a little skill -- while any moron can put a shift lever into "D" and pressing down on the accelerator pedal.
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
You assume, incorrectly, that manual transmissions are primitive. In fact it is their simplicity that make them superior, in my opinion and in the minds of many of my compatriots.
Some day there may be a consensus regarding the perfect transmission. It won't be conventional automatic with torque convertor, and it won't be a continuously variable transmission (CVT) -- these are not modern inventions, they have been around since the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps the auto-shifting manual transmissions such as the direct-shift gearbox (DSG) will become the consensus choice -- if their transmission control modules (TCM) are ever perfected for every driver and every driving condition.
But until then there is only one transmission design that can ensure that the vehicle is always in the exact gear that the driver wants to be in. It is impossible to imagine any transmission more efficient than a modern 5- or 6-speed manual transmission, in the hands of a skilled operator.
And maybe that is the real issue. A manual transmission requires a little effort and a little skill -- while any moron can put a shift lever into "D" and pressing down on the accelerator pedal.
Originally Posted By: nitwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Actually the better contrast would be between cruise control set by the driver and one initiated by an engine computer; I like being able to turn CC on and off.
Or brakes engaged by the driver compared to brakes engaged by an automated system; Mercedes and Volvo have this now for emergencies, but I would not want this 100% of the time.
Most cars leave the driver in control of the direction the car will move -- perhaps you think the car should take charge of its movements, and there is no need for a steering control?
Whether windows go up and down mechanically or electrically is irrelevant, as long as the operator makes the choice; would you have the car decide when to open and close the windows?
Likewise, there are several ways to lock or unlock doors, and auto-locking and auto-unlocking are already commonplace; as long as they are equally reliable over the lifespan of the vehicle, then there is nothing wrong with convenience.
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Actually the better contrast would be between cruise control set by the driver and one initiated by an engine computer; I like being able to turn CC on and off.
Or brakes engaged by the driver compared to brakes engaged by an automated system; Mercedes and Volvo have this now for emergencies, but I would not want this 100% of the time.
Most cars leave the driver in control of the direction the car will move -- perhaps you think the car should take charge of its movements, and there is no need for a steering control?
Whether windows go up and down mechanically or electrically is irrelevant, as long as the operator makes the choice; would you have the car decide when to open and close the windows?
Likewise, there are several ways to lock or unlock doors, and auto-locking and auto-unlocking are already commonplace; as long as they are equally reliable over the lifespan of the vehicle, then there is nothing wrong with convenience.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Sounds good to me. My neon is most of the way there. I'm thinking about ditching my PS to save on gas and for more feedback when doing some performance driving. Unboosted brakes would be interesting if they were designed that way from the start. I don't think any modern race cars use vacuum assisted brakes as they rarely have any vacuum anyways...
I have no power windows or locks on either of my cars and I can't say I've missed them... The only window crank I can't reach comfortably is the rear passenger one. I wish it had a manual trans but at least its got a bomb proof non electronic automatic.
Anyways, I get to where I'm going just like everyone else with all their gadgets.
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Sounds good to me. My neon is most of the way there. I'm thinking about ditching my PS to save on gas and for more feedback when doing some performance driving. Unboosted brakes would be interesting if they were designed that way from the start. I don't think any modern race cars use vacuum assisted brakes as they rarely have any vacuum anyways...
I have no power windows or locks on either of my cars and I can't say I've missed them... The only window crank I can't reach comfortably is the rear passenger one. I wish it had a manual trans but at least its got a bomb proof non electronic automatic.
Anyways, I get to where I'm going just like everyone else with all their gadgets.
I'll just stick with my automatic, much easier for my knees. Progress is wonderful, thats why we're not still driving Md T's.
Now whether Tornado Red thinks I'm a moron putting my shift lever into "D" and step on the gas pedal, welllllllllllllllll, maybe he should get to know me.
Whether windows go up or down mechanically or electrically is irrelevant-----------------I guess so till the motor goes out with the window down in the middle of the winter, then it becomes very relevant, Right?
Now whether Tornado Red thinks I'm a moron putting my shift lever into "D" and step on the gas pedal, welllllllllllllllll, maybe he should get to know me.
Whether windows go up or down mechanically or electrically is irrelevant-----------------I guess so till the motor goes out with the window down in the middle of the winter, then it becomes very relevant, Right?
OK, I'll buy that, because I'm far from being a moron.
Just a disabled old man that can't drive a stick anymore, but did for more than 40 years.
Just a disabled old man that can't drive a stick anymore, but did for more than 40 years.
Normally I don't like to put words in people's mouths, but I'm going to go out on a limb here: I'd bet that if you can't drive stick any more, what Tornado Red, I, and others have been saying doesn't really apply to you.
At least for my part, I'm only concerned with the people who have the choice and opt for the rolling couch over the involving driver's car. Again, I can't say for sure, but I'd bet I'd find some agreement on that point from my fellow manual transmission pundits on this one.
At least for my part, I'm only concerned with the people who have the choice and opt for the rolling couch over the involving driver's car. Again, I can't say for sure, but I'd bet I'd find some agreement on that point from my fellow manual transmission pundits on this one.
Well maybe, just maybe. Actually in my old age I've grown lazy also. I even like my remote and am glad I don't have to get up to change chanels. Man that'd be a bummer with the couple of hundred channels I get with the dish. hehe
There are times I'd like to show those young whipper snappers all about, oh what the heck, thats all history now.
There are times I'd like to show those young whipper snappers all about, oh what the heck, thats all history now.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
I love my MT but I think the "control" argument is a little bit bogus too. Not totally, but a little bit. The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all). Thus you do have "more" control -- it's not about absolute full control vs no control.
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
I love my MT but I think the "control" argument is a little bit bogus too. Not totally, but a little bit. The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all). Thus you do have "more" control -- it's not about absolute full control vs no control.
Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
I love my MT but I think the "control" argument is a little bit bogus too. Not totally, but a little bit. The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all). Thus you do have "more" control -- it's not about absolute full control vs no control.
Thought about it but had to stop somewhere.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
I love my MT but I think the "control" argument is a little bit bogus too. Not totally, but a little bit. The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all). Thus you do have "more" control -- it's not about absolute full control vs no control.
Thought about it but had to stop somewhere.
Originally Posted By: rationull
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
DBW throttles are like ABS: when they're done right, it's all gain and no pain.
Originally Posted By: rationull
The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all).
I think your parenthesis is more important than the part before it.
The two advantages of a manual that cannot (yet) be replicated by any other transmission type are:
1. Being able to coast or engine break whenever you want, and
2. Being able to skip gears.
There's also the fact that you're more involved in the drive, although this can be a liability for some even if it's a huge benefit for many.
It's conceivable that an electrohydraulically actuated manual (e.g. BMW SMG) or double-clutch transmission could be adapted to let you coast or engine brake as you please. At that point, the main difference would be whether you would want the extra weight and expense of such a transmission.
Not sure how you you could say all that and not mention drive by wire throttle
DBW throttles are like ABS: when they're done right, it's all gain and no pain.
Originally Posted By: rationull
The real point is that with an MT you have more direct control of where in the powerband you are at all times (and for that matter, instant control of whether power is going to the wheels at all).
I think your parenthesis is more important than the part before it.
The two advantages of a manual that cannot (yet) be replicated by any other transmission type are:
1. Being able to coast or engine break whenever you want, and
2. Being able to skip gears.
There's also the fact that you're more involved in the drive, although this can be a liability for some even if it's a huge benefit for many.
It's conceivable that an electrohydraulically actuated manual (e.g. BMW SMG) or double-clutch transmission could be adapted to let you coast or engine brake as you please. At that point, the main difference would be whether you would want the extra weight and expense of such a transmission.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The two advantages of a manual that cannot (yet) be replicated by any other transmission type are:
1. Being able to coast or engine break whenever you want, and
2. Being able to skip gears.
I had never even thought about the inability to skip gears on an automated manual. My lack of interest in them is due to what I see as unnecessary complexity. But it would feel silly to have to go through a bunch of gears after quickly accelerating to highway speed instead of just going directly from 2 to 5.
Another thing that I don't believe any automatic transmission offers is the ability to directly control harshness of clutch engagement. Aside from the lag in downshifting when coming out of corners, one of the things that has annoyed me most the last few times I've driven an automatic is how harsh the shifts can be at full throttle. It makes me feel like I'm caning the car instead of just using the engine's full potential. I often like to accelerate at full throttle through a gear, then smoothly shift and only get back to full throttle once the clutch is engaged. I suppose you may be able to simulate this using paddle shifters if you got used to letting off the throttle at the right time.
The two advantages of a manual that cannot (yet) be replicated by any other transmission type are:
1. Being able to coast or engine break whenever you want, and
2. Being able to skip gears.
I had never even thought about the inability to skip gears on an automated manual. My lack of interest in them is due to what I see as unnecessary complexity. But it would feel silly to have to go through a bunch of gears after quickly accelerating to highway speed instead of just going directly from 2 to 5.
Another thing that I don't believe any automatic transmission offers is the ability to directly control harshness of clutch engagement. Aside from the lag in downshifting when coming out of corners, one of the things that has annoyed me most the last few times I've driven an automatic is how harsh the shifts can be at full throttle. It makes me feel like I'm caning the car instead of just using the engine's full potential. I often like to accelerate at full throttle through a gear, then smoothly shift and only get back to full throttle once the clutch is engaged. I suppose you may be able to simulate this using paddle shifters if you got used to letting off the throttle at the right time.
Just a quick transmission question. Is a CVT transmission just an update of the old Buick Dynaflow slush box?
Originally Posted By: glen242
Just a quick transmission question. Is a CVT transmission just an update of the old Buick Dynaflow slush box?
They are completely different. There are different types of CVTs. You should be able to find some good descriptions of how they work with Google.
Just a quick transmission question. Is a CVT transmission just an update of the old Buick Dynaflow slush box?
They are completely different. There are different types of CVTs. You should be able to find some good descriptions of how they work with Google.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
I love seeing posts like this because it is a "formula" used by certain people and groups to make others look ridiculous when in reality it makes the person posting such nonsense look it.
No question that technology (in moderate, logically applied amounts) can be beneficial in many ways....Unfortunately today the industry has started to repulse the customer with the excessive use of such fluffery.
Could we be seeing the start of a consumer rebellion of unnecessary electronics ??? I sure hope so....
If for no other reason folks financial means simply will not allow for it. (huge repair cost and diagnosis of these items)
When the industry no longer sells affordably priced cars with manual tranmissions I will NO LONGER BE BUYING NEW CARS ...got that?
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
I love seeing posts like this because it is a "formula" used by certain people and groups to make others look ridiculous when in reality it makes the person posting such nonsense look it.
No question that technology (in moderate, logically applied amounts) can be beneficial in many ways....Unfortunately today the industry has started to repulse the customer with the excessive use of such fluffery.
Could we be seeing the start of a consumer rebellion of unnecessary electronics ??? I sure hope so....
If for no other reason folks financial means simply will not allow for it. (huge repair cost and diagnosis of these items)
When the industry no longer sells affordably priced cars with manual tranmissions I will NO LONGER BE BUYING NEW CARS ...got that?
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I like the mid to late 60s cars. A/C is nice though.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
I love seeing posts like this because it is a "formula" used by certain people and groups to make others look ridiculous when in reality it makes the person posting such nonsense look it.
No question that technology (in moderate, logically applied amounts) can be beneficial in many ways....Unfortunately today the industry has started to repulse the customer with the excessive use of such fluffery.
Could we be seeing the start of a consumer rebellion of unnecessary electronics ??? I sure hope so....
If for no other reason folks financial means simply will not allow for it. (huge repair cost and diagnosis of these items)
When the industry no longer sells affordably priced cars with manual tranmissions I will NO LONGER BE BUYING NEW CARS ...got that?
Noodle heads like electronics. I don't need electronic gizmos to get me where I want to go.
Originally Posted By: jcwit
For all of you out there worried all about your "control" with a manual, don't forget to do away with your cruise control, and your power breaks, and power steering, and lets return to a manual activated overdrive. In fact lets go back to hand window winders and locking doors with a key, Heck, just get a 1940's or '50's car, you'll have all the control you can handle
I love seeing posts like this because it is a "formula" used by certain people and groups to make others look ridiculous when in reality it makes the person posting such nonsense look it.
No question that technology (in moderate, logically applied amounts) can be beneficial in many ways....Unfortunately today the industry has started to repulse the customer with the excessive use of such fluffery.
Could we be seeing the start of a consumer rebellion of unnecessary electronics ??? I sure hope so....
If for no other reason folks financial means simply will not allow for it. (huge repair cost and diagnosis of these items)
When the industry no longer sells affordably priced cars with manual tranmissions I will NO LONGER BE BUYING NEW CARS ...got that?
Noodle heads like electronics. I don't need electronic gizmos to get me where I want to go.
I decided to re-open it, it's a worthwhile topic -- please remember to keep it on topic and civil.
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