Does small engine needs synthetics?

4WD

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Yes, Delo is from Chevron and Havoline is from Texaco. For you guys not familiar with Caltex … see the above ^^^
 
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Originally Posted by Bonz
Help me understand how there might be less wear with conventional oil? Not saying a synthetic is the be-all or end-all for less wear, however I would not think it sacrifices anyting to a conventional oil either. I would think syn and conv would be at least equal on all counts given similar additive packages and weight ranges.
Touche' Help me understand how there might be less wear with synthetic? (btw - I didnt say either one sacrifices anything. I used the word conventional "might" produce less wear. and here you say "at least equal on all counts" I agree, at least equal. :o) The reason why I believe in your words "at least equal" is because I dont think in 7 or so years on BITOG that anyone has ever posted a better UOA on a motorcycle engine then I have and all I have ever used is conventional and for the current Road King semi-syn, most everyone else syn. That is one reason, Another reason is at some point Ford's high output Mustang engine manufactured spec'd a semi syn, not full syn ... again ... "at least equal" exactly ! :o)
 
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Motorcraft markets semi-synthetic oils and maybe that is why Ford specified that for the Mustang? I can't speak to whether they specify semi-syn for more run-of-the-mill vehicles. However it wouldn't surprise me if it is more across-the-board. I have to agree I can't see synthetic shows better wear numbers than conventional. However in a motorcycle I do know the shift quality holds up better therefore I leave the synthetic oil in longer. From going through UOA's on the forum, I would be hard-pressed to say I have read of an oil that is as shear resistant than either of the M1 MC specific synthetic oils in a shared sump. Maybe Redline and Amsoil perform as well, but no better.
 
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I will agree that shift quality must hold up better with M1 and Amsoil simply because for unknown reason the oil actually thickens up in non shared sump bikes. It does thicken up in non shared sump bikes then it holds its own in shared sump bikes. Thing is in a non shared sump bike M1 can EASLY go out of grade to a 60 in as little as 2500 miles. You do know, in the "old" days a motor oil that behaved this was would be said to be oxidizing, NOT a good thing, the oil would get trashed. M1 and Amsoil are well respected but it is interesting whatever is going on in the oil that causes it to get thicker. Im sure its planned into the oil. So in reality, its not that the oil is not shearing, its the oil getting thicker to make up for the shearing. If my statement is wrong why does M1 20/50 increase a grade to 20/60 in a non shared sump bike after only 2500 miles? Again, its all good, its oil, it works and heck, if I had a shared sump bike I might be tempted to try it, but I wouldn't use it in a Harley or any non shared sump bike and if one does use it in a shared sump bike so the shifting holds up I dont see anything wrong with that. I would add though, the motorcycle makers aren't stupid and know the oils they recommend shear down 1 grade and they see nothing wrong with that. I do understand about the shifting in shared sump bikes as you can see by my signature. I was pretty happy with 20w50 Valvoline Conventional 4 stroke motorcycle oil. I am surprised at some of the comments in this thread, suggesting the OP put 20w50 oil in his bike when Honda says to use 10w30!!! My god, please no ! *L* ..peace..
 
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
I dont think in 7 or so years on BITOG that anyone has ever posted a better UOA on a motorcycle engine then I have and all I have ever used is conventional and for the current Road King semi-syn, most everyone else syn.
It's good to know that UOA results do not reflect wear rates, despite the overwhelming tendency to believe they do. What UOA results do show are major trend changes in wear metals and/or other contaminates, which can help indicate impending or existing problems. When I worked for Mobil Oil, we tested certain oils and greases for wear rates. The method to assess wear ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES disassembly, incredibly precise measurement and detailed wear scar assessment with a scanning electron microscope. There are reasons aplenty for the inability of UOA results to indicate wear rates. Clearly, individual internal components produce particulates at WILDLY differing rates. Today's direct injection engines automotive engines have a very highly loaded, camshaft driven high pressure fuel pump. This one component can give high Fe UOA results. While the rest of the engine, cylinders, bearing journals, camshaft and followers, timing chains and oil pump are producing little to no Fe. Furthermore, conventional oils can produce significant particulate trapping sludges and deposits, leading to stellar UOA results, right up until the engine fails due to excessive wear. Not unusual at all. Remember the high Fe with Mobil-1 ? It was not associated with high wear rates in any way. Once again, choose a quality oil, capable of the task at hand, and change it frequently enough to keep contaminates, particulates and degradation/viscosity loss to a minimum.
 
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I am in soooo much trouble ! I've used Rotella 15W-40 (conventional) in all of my power equipment for (probably) 30 years. Lawnmowers, tractors, motorcycles, etc
 
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Originally Posted by kballowe
I am in soooo much trouble ! I've used Rotella 15W-40 (conventional) in all of my power equipment for (probably) 30 years. Lawnmowers, tractors, motorcycles, etc
A superb choice. A robust oil with a great additive pack.
 
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One thing it seems to do is handle oil burning better and it looks cleaner running to 100hrs. With the regular oil I had to add oil periodically every 10hrs or and the synthetic I can run about 80hrs without adding and usually if I don't add it will only be right at the add line by the time I hit the 100hr oci.
 

MasKaz

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Originally Posted by andyd
How much oil is a full sump? On something that can run at 9000 rpm, I would want clean oil. Also on a small aircoole engine, I would expect a certain amount of consumption, so frequent checks .
Max oil capacity 1.2L, periodic 1L. Many riders here reporting oil consumption when they using OEM conventional oil. That's why I don't trust the OEM oil and looking for better alternatives.
Originally Posted by 4WD
For you guys not familiar with Caltex … see the above ^^^
Thank you for explaining! I don't have understanding about the company, I thought they're the same.
Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am surprised at some of the comments in this thread, suggesting the OP put 20w50 oil in his bike when Honda says to use 10w30!!! My god, please no ! *L*
I read 20w-50 are good for older engine, as the oil path is not as tight as new. So thicker oil maybe the best for them.
Originally Posted by antonmnster
I'd just go with a nice straight 30W. My air cooled stuff seemed happiest with it, and it's chemically simple.
Unfortunately 30w monograde oil available here are designed for cars. So they may cause slips smirk
Originally Posted by tundraotto
Since the OP is in Indonesia - at least this should be available. SHELL ADVANCE AX3
Yes it is available and cheap! I've been looking their AX7 (semi) and Ultra (full syn) products. Probably will try them, but many complaining the noisy engine after just 1000km.
 

MasKaz

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So are you saying UOA analysis could be misleading? Given they may not actually telling what's going on in your engine. Furthermore, will the sludge trapped in the engine or is it caught by the oil filter?
 

MasKaz

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So synthetic definitely better with oil consumption, but is it run smoother than the conventional oil? And something bugs me, are you using operating hours for OCI?
 
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Originally Posted by Cujet
As we know, viscosity is the property of oil that provides lubrication. When viscosity is too low, certain components tend to wear more rapidly. This includes things like motorcycle camshaft followers/rocker arms and timing chains.
Technically speaking what actually lubricates our engines whether big or small is FLOW not how thick the oil... Blackstone Labs data shows flow is more important for lubrication... The Importance of Viscosity? Quote Blackstone Labs The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil's ability to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness. If that doesn't sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick (sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of transmissions will have a similar life span. We don't find any significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness. Quote 540Rat VISCOSITY vs WEAR PROTECTION CAPABILITY COMPARISON: 20 wt oils rank between number 2 and 220 30 wt oils rank between number 1 and 233 40 wt oils rank between number 6 and 219 50 wt oils rank between number 39 and 228 60 wt oil, the only one tested, ranked number 101 70 wt oil, the only one tested, ranked number 177 So, as you can see, this is absolute PROOF that viscosity does NOT determine an oil's wear protection capability, even though many people mistakenly believe it does. As mentioned above, an oil's wear protection capability is determined by its base oil and its additive package "as a whole", with the primary emphasis on the additive package, which contains the critical extreme pressure anti-wear components. And the additive package has nothing to do with viscosity. In general, it is best to use the thinnest viscosity motor oil that will still maintain sufficient HOT oil pressure. Thinner oil is best because thinner oil flows, lubricates and cools critical engine components better than thicker oils can. Thinner oils reduce bearing temperatures and sump temperatures compared to thicker oils. Thinner oils can also help increase horsepower and miles per gallon. Using thicker oil than is needed, is going the wrong way.
 
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Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am surprised at some of the comments in this thread, suggesting the OP put 20w50 oil in his bike when Honda says to use 10w30!!! My god, please no ! *L* ..peace..
I agree... Honda can be trusted if they recommend a 30 grade... running a 50 grade will cost the owner an extra 2 to 3 HP with no increase in engine longevity... oil drag is real... [Linked Image]
 
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Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Technically speaking what actually lubricates our engines whether big or small is FLOW not how thick the oil...
In engines with positive displacement oil pumps (which is AFAIK, all motorcycle engines), the flow at the pump outlet is the same for a given rpm whether the oil is thick or thin, so long as it is pumpable. Of course, it does take more energy to pump oil that is, say, 1200cst than if it were 12cst. Also, flow itself does not lubricate, flow merely provides the oil supply that the bearings draw from. If your bearings are not starved for oil, more flow will not give you more lubrication/better protection.
 
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Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
[Linked Image]
So the engine in your Honda has a gravity fed lubrication system instead of oil pumps? LOL
 
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Originally Posted by jeff78
Of course, it does take more energy to pump oil that is, say, 1200cst than if it were 12cst.
True...
 
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ZeeOSix

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Originally Posted by jeff78
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Technically speaking what actually lubricates our engines whether big or small is FLOW not how thick the oil...
In engines with positive displacement oil pumps (which is AFAIK, all motorcycle engines), the flow at the pump outlet is the same for a given rpm whether the oil is thick or thin, so long as it is pumpable. Of course, it does take more energy to pump oil that is, say, 1200cst than if it were 12cst. Also, flow itself does not lubricate, flow merely provides the oil supply that the bearings draw from. If your bearings are not starved for oil, more flow will not give you more lubrication/better protection.
Yep, Lubrication is basically all about two moving parts being separated by a thin film of oil to prevent metal-to-metal contact. If the two moving parts do make contact, then it's the anti-wear additives in the oil that are supposed to help mitigate the level of wear. Oil viscosity is one factor that determines how thick that film of oil is between the two moving parts. Thicker oil gives a larger minimum oil film thickness (MOFT), which helps separate the two parts further away from each other. That is the first line of deference against wear - to prevent any metal-to-metal contact from ever happening. If the MOFT becomes too thin and the parts make contact, then it's the anti-wear additives in the oil that is the 2nd line of defense to help minimize that wear.
 
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