does one need all 4 winter tires?

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Every year we see the same threads and every year the answer is still irrefutable and unchanging. To find the facts do a search online on the capabilities of winter tires and then a take a small period of time to think about simple physics. It simply can not be argued.

The whole idea of winter tires on all four corners is to prevent any drifting to actually provide increased traction. We get the same simple thinking individuals that think that the 'drive' wheels (fwd, rwd) are the only ones that need traction.

A couple of factors that obscure these simple laws are budget and ignorance.
-If you can't afford winter tires get a good set of 3 seasons and deal with the lesser capability. Fresh winter tires exceed the abilities of a fresh 3 season tire. It can and has been proven time after time.

-It doesn't matter how many years you have driven with 3 seasons or winter and do just fine, 4 winter tires provides more grip and better safety. If one is blinded by the ignorance of their own skill limitations they are seldom swayed by such notions of fact and laws of physics.

Consider this:
Take a look at most racing cars and how their shoes. When its dry, wet, snowing, gravel etc, they have a different tire for every road surface. They risk millions of dollars and reputation that they can complete the road course quicker and safer than the other racers who are all of world leading skill and experience. They have R&D working overtime to gain the smallest advantage...the tech that trickles down helps the consumer cars.

We too have access to higher performance shoes. 3 season tires are a compromise for all surfaces. They can obtain some degree of grip at the limitation of another. Summer tires outshine 3 season in the dry, but are awful in the heavy rain/mud/snow. Winter tires outshine 3 season in the cold temperature weather conditions, but are not good in the dry at all.

Like different tools for a job there are always good/better/best. What you choose is up to you, but always be willing to learn or be stuck in last century thinking.
 
I'd agree with the above except its overly generalized.

and that
Some summer tires are amazing in heavy rain.

All 3 major tire categories can have tires biased for certain conditions.

Winter tires have performance winter,

some summer tires are basically designed for Dry/track use, some have great wet traction as well.

and some all seasons are more bias'ed towards dry, wet or even winter conditions.
 
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I'd also factor in the amount of Winter driving one deals with. Just compare Chicago winter driving to that of Houghton, MI. You will hardly ever see a clear road all winter in Houghton, plus the hills. The Chicago Winter has dry, clear roads much of the time.

I've know more than a few deaths that could of been avoided with dedicated Winter tires. This goes beyond just driving carefully in snowy conditions.

Come the 1st snowfalls, I'll put on Winter tires, cheap insurance. This applies to our 4 wheel drive too.
 
I've had RWD, FWD, 4WD. Lived in southern states, 20 minutes from Canada, New England and others.

The first time I didn't listen to tire shop on my RWD and only got 2 on rear (same as Dad always did). Going carefully and adjusted for poor conditions, for 2-3 weeks, sliding through intersections, then went and got 2 more. problems solved. Stopping and turning is more important to me then getting going.

Sold and bought a FWD civic, Shop said get 4 still didn't listen because FWD is so much better in snow etc. (like dad said) driving through light snow just dusting surface spun 180 just missing a semi. Bought 2 more. Controlled balanced grip!

4WD tried the NEW all seasons (no cash for winters). Slid through many intersections. Stuck going up a hill all four wheels spinning. Dad stopped in his RWD Express van (with 4 winters) and asked if I was OK. I had to go a different way around to get home.

Watch the videos and you decide.

4 of a kind/2 pair

mixed vs. matched

all season vs. winter

Transport Canada
(side note: Crown Vic "all seasons" are Nokian WR which are much better than most all seasons)
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Every year we see the same threads and every year the answer is still irrefutable and unchanging. To find the facts do a search online on the capabilities of winter tires and then a take a small period of time to think about simple physics. It simply can not be argued.

The whole idea of winter tires on all four corners is to prevent any drifting to actually provide increased traction. We get the same simple thinking individuals that think that the 'drive' wheels (fwd, rwd) are the only ones that need traction.


And every year we get people that claim "I'll get by". And these are car nuts! Imagine the average Joe!

Those folks that claim they'll get by are the ones skidding off the roads, making others late. And the ones demanding more salt on the roads, rotting out their cars, and ours.

It'd be so much easier if they'd just spring $200 for a set of four steel rims at new car purchase and just ran appropriate tires. One's only wearing one set of tires at a time anyway, why not have weather-appropriate ones? Then we could run half the salt and be more productive workers who get to work on time, and our cars would last five years longer.
 
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN

The problem is that todays generation has grown up on FWD Unibody 4cyl [censored] with no chassis or frames. Most have never even driven a RWD car ever yet alone in the snow. I was brought up on RWD V8 cars/trucks with a frame. IE Chassis. I'll take my RWD V8 Crown Vic in the snow with TWO REAR Snow Tires any day over today's FWD unibody junk any day! Once you learn how to steer a RWD car in slippery condition much like a Sprint Car on a dirt track its quite fun actually like drifting. Another thing you cannot to with todays FWD Junk!


I had to drive my Cherokee as 2WD one winter, with good highly-siped Nokians.

The tires had the traction; it would stop on a dime on ice and hardpacked snow. It just wouldn't go. I swear, I put an additional 10K miles on the rear (only drive it 3K that winter) because it was constantly spinning the right rear. Even with a few hundred pounds in the back.

I much prefer my junk poop-box frontdriver with 4 snow tires than a rear wheel drive vehicle in the snow.

I did almost buy a crown vic instead of the Cherokee. It would have had snow tires. But i would have had to add a ton to the rear.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
On some RWD cars (like mine for example), one CANNOT even get winter/snow/ice tires in the same size as the standard tires (they just are NOT made, and maybe never were).

So the imbalance becomes even greater yet with a 245/50-16 all season on the front, and a 225/55-16 winter on the back.

All the more reason for me to go with the 225/55-16, or a taller/higher profile 225/60-16 ALL AROUND, if I am going to use winter tires at all.

(The BEST scenario would be for me to buy new wheels at 16x7, and put some 215/60-16, Q or R rated winters on those, all around, which is exactly what I would do IF I were in a severe 'snow belt' area like the upper Midwest, the mountain states, or northern New England.
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You've read my mind! I've been running 225/55-16's for winter tires for 12 years, but since my car is lowered, it drags a lot on unplowed or slushy roads. For this year, I have bought a set of 225/60-16 Blizzak WS70's, which will give me about 11mm more ground clearance. And I'm thinking of pulling off the front air dam to keep it from acting as a snow plow.

I drove my Camaro on the original GS-C summer tires in the snow. Once.
I drove my Camaro on Conti DWS all-seasons in the snow. Once.
There is no comparison to driving on dedicated winter tires at all four corners. It isn't just tire companies trying to sell more tires.
 
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Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Yes, use dedicated winter tires at all 4 corners.
If you use them in the rear only, you will see what you're going to hit in the windshield.
If you use them in the front only, you will see what you're going to hit in the rear-view mirror.


I respectfully disagree! I have been driving Crown Vics for the last 28 years as a Police Officer. We only put snow tires on the rear wheels. Never a problem ever using this method.


Have you ever driven your Crown Vic with dedicated winter tires all around? I'd bet you lunch that you'd not want to go back!
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I drove my Camaro on the original GS-C summer tires in the snow. Once.
I drove my Camaro on Conti DWS all-seasons in the snow. Once.
There is no comparison to driving on dedicated winter tires at all four corners. It isn't just tire companies trying to sell more tires.


The bolded above is ESPECIALLY TRUE of our particular cars!!
thumbsup2.gif


I drove on the factory GS-Cs in the snow (only ~1"-2" deep) when they were BRAND NEW (10 miles on the odo) less than one week after picking up the car from the dealer in January 2000.

I was on my way to the tire store to have 4 225/55-16 Pirelli Winter 210s put on the stock 'snowflake' 16x8s.

I almost did not make it, as EVERY little 3* incline was a 10 minute, 4000 RPM in 4th gear, completely sideways ordeal, and I just missed the curb at least 20 times!!!
eek.gif
 
You will get and have gotten all kinds of opinions on the need for dedicated winters.
We've driven many miles in RWD, FWD and AWD vehicles through some awesome winter events without incident on nothing more than all season tires.
We've also had some dedicated winters tires, and they really are better half a dozen or so days out of each year. All the little slides and steering corrections just go away and traction is amazing.
That said, there is no reason that you can't get through winter without dedicated winter tires. Drive sensibly and with an awareness of the grip you have available and you'll have no problems.
Disaster does not await you if you decide to put winters on the drive end only.
Just use some sense and some basic car control skills. Don't allow the little slides to become big ones. That's what the wheels in your hands is for.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88


I had to drive my Cherokee as 2WD one winter, with good highly-siped Nokians.

The tires had the traction; it would stop on a dime on ice and hardpacked snow. It just wouldn't go. I swear, I put an additional 10K miles on the rear (only drive it 3K that winter) because it was constantly spinning the right rear. Even with a few hundred pounds in the back.

I much prefer my junk poop-box frontdriver with 4 snow tires than a rear wheel drive vehicle in the snow.

I did almost buy a crown vic instead of the Cherokee. It would have had snow tires. But i would have had to add a ton to the rear.


My FWD Honda Odyssey van ( note - nothing mini about it...) has , if I had to guess, about 600 lbs of big V6 and tranny etc... directly over those front wheels... and I run Nokian Hakka R tires on it. It is very, very good in snow and ice...!

I don't know if you could get that much weight in the trunk of a RWD ... a truck sure, but not a car.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You will get and have gotten all kinds of opinions on the need for dedicated winters.
We've driven many miles in RWD, FWD and AWD vehicles through some awesome winter events without incident on nothing more than all season tires.
We've also had some dedicated winters tires, and they really are better half a dozen or so days out of each year. All the little slides and steering corrections just go away and traction is amazing.
That said, there is no reason that you can't get through winter without dedicated winter tires. Drive sensibly and with an awareness of the grip you have available and you'll have no problems.
Disaster does not await you if you decide to put winters on the drive end only.
Just use some sense and some basic car control skills. Don't allow the little slides to become big ones. That's what the wheels in your hands is for.


Right... because EVERYONE has the car control skills of a WRC rally driver... !

Or the masses could just buy decent tires and be that much safer...
 
One of the most overlooked features is how much traction all-seasons retain while slipping vs winter tires(while slipping)

if you spin most all-seasons you end up with a very low amount of lateral or forward traction even with a fairly low slip %

whereas winter tires retain a good amount of traction upto 85% slip ratio (the number is from memory ymmv)

and of course winter tires don't slip nearly as much. in wintry conditions.
 
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^ yup if you skid on snows you recover with known-good driving techniques.

Once you break traction on all seasons you just spin and can't get it back with the wheel, pedals, shifter etc. Just close your eyes and scrub off speed.
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789
Right... because EVERYONE has the car control skills of a WRC rally driver... !


To be fair, most people around here don't have winter tires, and the majority get through the winters OK. Of course the minority end up facing backwards with the front of the car smashed in when they spin out on a bend...

The problem is that the people least likely to buy winter tires are also the least likely to pay attention to conditions and allow for them when driving.
 
The OP could put 1 winter tire on the front left and the second winter tire on the rear right.
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Originally Posted By: Traction
I won't drive in the winter without 4 winter tires. But, back in the day when everything was rear drive, you ran 2 snows in the rear or chains. Chains will always beat winter tires in deep snow. Deep snow will help you turn and stop. Ice is totally different, and challenging even with all the traction you can get. Now, they call every tire all-season. no matter how wide they are. When they came up with the term all-season, the tires where only like 5 inches wide, and worked about like winter tires do now. All-season doesn't mean much anymore.


Not to mention back in the day, the old snow tires weren't really all that much. Big deep lugs that helped in snow. Nothing more, nothing less.

All-seasons back then probably did have something to offer, relative to the other choices: summer tires, and the old school snow tires.

Of course, there has been much innovation in tires since, and with modern winter tires, they leave the all seasons in the dust in any winter codition.

I'm all for matched sets of tires, regardless of type. When I was young and poor, I did mismatch tires, and nothing serious came about it. But then what I drove also matched my financial situation, and couldn't really get me into trouble.

Sure, you can use only 2, but then you are only getting half of the performance you should have, which can lead the car to behave unpredictably in an emergency.
 
Originally Posted By: brslds
The OP could put 1 winter tire on the front left and the second winter tire on the rear right.
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If it were my vehicle, I'd rather do that than have all my grip at one end.
 
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
Originally Posted By: brslds
The OP could put 1 winter tire on the front left and the second winter tire on the rear right.
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If it were my vehicle, I'd rather do that than have all my grip at one end.


that would be horrible. no acceleration 1 wheel peel.

and 1 wheel braking.. can you say possibly deadly.
 
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Originally Posted By: Rand
that would be horrible. no acceleration 1 wheel peel.

and 1 wheel braking.. can you say possibly deadly.

All true... but I doubt you'd ever get going fast enough to do serious damage when (not if... when) you hit something.
 
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