Does Fram really cause engine failure?

[gfh77665]

Just because (for example) a 50 year old man is still breathing after drinking, smoking, and eating himself nearly to death does not prove eating junk food, drinking and smoking was GOOD for him.

Fram is JUNK. I saw a cut-a-way. Anyone can EASILY SEE Fram is junk with a quick glance at its shoddy interior construction. Fram is JUNK.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Wow 18 posts and you have that wisdom...

Just think, Fram is the number #1 selling filter. All those engines that are going to die any second.

I've done more miles using Frams and cut open each and every one with no problems. I have engines that have and continue to operate PERFECTLY after 200k, 300k and they have mostly seen Frams.

Just because something looks cheap does not mean it does not work. They DO work. The only filter that I've cut open in over 30 YEARS and had a issue with was a Wix. You could see the defect.

So I guess I should be stating that WIX are junk. No because every MFG has issues.

You don't like Frams? Fine. But they DO WORK and engines that run them last just as if you were running a $20 filter.

Bill

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Wow 18 posts and you have that wisdom...

Just think, Fram is the number #1 selling filter. All those engines that are going to die any second.

I've done more miles using Frams and cut open each and every one with no problems. I have engines that have and continue to operate PERFECTLY after 200k, 300k and they have mostly seen Frams.

Just because something looks cheap does not mean it does not work. They DO work. The only filter that I've cut open in over 30 YEARS and had a issue with was a Wix. You could see the defect.

So I guess I should be stating that WIX are junk. No because every MFG has issues.

You don't like Frams? Fine. But they DO WORK and engines that run them last just as if you were running a $20 filter.

Bill



Hi, Bill, and thanks for the kind words...

A response, if I may, please:

In your opinion, "wisdom" is based on "number of posts in the BITOG forum"? Can you explain? If a top notch automotive or petroleum engineer was to post here just a few times, that would make him just an ignorant moron, right? When does "real wisdom" begin? 4400 posts? Just asking.

Anyhow, I was under the assumption the purpose of this forum, and others like it, was to facilitate information communication and discussions between interested parties. At least that's how I use it. I simply felt I had worthy information to share: namely the observation of shoddy interior construction of Fram filters, vs. its competitors. That's all. It doesn't even take a person with an engineering background to SEE the difference, my 10 year old son could easily see with a quick glance at the cut-a-way, of the poor quality inside. I shared this to help others, not to generate an argument.

Now, I have no vested interest whatsoever what filter Bill or anyone else uses. If you feel the junk Frams are right for you, use away, and have a great day.

 

[Jim_Truett]

Not all Fram filters are made by Fram. Take the CH9549 for my 6.4 Powerstroke as an example. It is a repackaged Racor PFL-2016, and is exactly the same as the OEM FL2016. The 9549 is at minimum a $1 cheaper than the FL2016 at most retailers.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Wow 18 posts and you have that wisdom...

Just think, Fram is the number #1 selling filter. All those engines that are going to die any second.

I've done more miles using Frams and cut open each and every one with no problems. I have engines that have and continue to operate PERFECTLY after 200k, 300k and they have mostly seen Frams.

Just because something looks cheap does not mean it does not work. They DO work. The only filter that I've cut open in over 30 YEARS and had a issue with was a Wix. You could see the defect.

So I guess I should be stating that WIX are junk. No because every MFG has issues.

You don't like Frams? Fine. But they DO WORK and engines that run them last just as if you were running a $20 filter.

Bill



Hi, Bill, and thanks for the kind words...

A response, if I may, please:

In your opinion, "wisdom" is based on "number of posts in the BITOG forum"? Can you explain? If a top notch automotive or petroleum engineer was to post here just a few times, that would make him just an ignorant moron, right? When does "real wisdom" begin? 4400 posts? Just asking.

Anyhow, I was under the assumption the purpose of this forum, and others like it, was to facilitate information communication and discussions between interested parties. At least that's how I use it. I simply felt I had worthy information to share: namely the observation of shoddy interior construction of Fram filters, vs. its competitors. That's all. It doesn't even take a person with an engineering background to SEE the difference, my 10 year old son could easily see with a quick glance at the cut-a-way, of the poor quality inside. I shared this to help others, not to generate an argument.

Now, I have no vested interest whatsoever what filter Bill or anyone else uses. If you feel the junk Frams are right for you, use away, and have a great day.


Your 10 year son does not have much experience so I would be ok with him thinking that you can judge a book (or filter in this case) by its cover.

But if you spent any time going through here you would find that Frams work just fine. And again, #1 filter out there and where are all the dead engines?

Must have missed the class action law suit if all those engines were dieing due to the "junk" (your word) filters were REALLY causing any problems.

But instead one of your first posts is calling out Fram.

Look at when I joined. Been here a few years and I don't post too much. I spend a lot of time reading and thinking before posting. I don't post 400 posts a week like some of our new folks.

Wisdom is not a time or how many posts are made. Calling out mfg calling it junk when there is data showing that it is not is what I would not call wisdom.

Remember there are many more people that read this board and even more QUOTE it on other boards and one important thing to me is that accurate data is posted.

Calling Fram junk is not accurate. Are there better filters for less $. Yep. That is why most of the time I use something else.

But many Frams are used every day with no issues.

Take care, Bill

 

[andyvr4]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I've done more miles using Frams and cut open each and every one with no problems. I have engines that have and continue to operate PERFECTLY after 200k, 300k and they have mostly seen Frams.


Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Calling Fram junk is not accurate. Are there better filters for less $. Yep. That is why most of the time I use something else.


If you use something else most of the time then how is that you've put 200k and 300k miles on the vehicles with Fram filters.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: andyvr4
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I've done more miles using Frams and cut open each and every one with no problems. I have engines that have and continue to operate PERFECTLY after 200k, 300k and they have mostly seen Frams.


Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Calling Fram junk is not accurate. Are there better filters for less $. Yep. That is why most of the time I use something else.


If you use something else most of the time then how is that you've put 200k and 300k miles on the vehicles with Fram filters.


Let's see.

Been driving for many DECADES. Most of my old cars /trucks I sell to family or friends since they know I take care of my vehicles. Most of my ex-engines have and many still use Frams.

My current vehicles (one 3 years old with 124k miles and other is a 2007 with 22k) have used mostly Supertech filters.

I stopped using Frams when I found Supertech filters for a lot less $$. Now that the Supertech have doubled, they still are cheaper but much closer in price to Fram.

My point is still where are all the class action law suits (like with Mobil and their aircraft oil) and all the engines that have failed?

Take care, Bill

 

[panthermike]

I used to only use Frams as well and never had any issues. But like many, I have found better filters for a cheaper price so I no longer use Fram.

 

[gfh77665]

FINAL THOUGHTS FROM ME ON THIS SUBJECT...

Your 10 year son does not have much experience so I would be ok with him thinking that you can judge a book (or filter in this case) by its cover.
WE WERE NOT JUDGING THE COVER, BUT THE INTERIOR CONSTRUCTION.

But instead one of your first posts is calling out Fram.
MAYBE SO, BUT ONE OF THE FIRST REPLIES WAS SOMEONE CALLING ME OUT.

Been here a few years and I don't post too much. I spend a lot of time reading and thinking before posting.
LIKEWISE. I HAVE BEEN HERE OVER 4 MONTHS, AND HAVE A GRAND TOTAL OF JUST 20 POSTS. I WAS EARLIER CRITICIZED FOR THE SMALL NUMBER.

Wisdom is not a time or how many posts are made.
THAT WAS MY POINT. I DIDN'T JUDGE ANYONE BY THEIR POST NUMBER, BUT I WAS JUDGED!

AGAIN, I HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST WHATSOEVER WHAT FILTERS ANYONE ELSE USES. IF MY OBSERVATION IS NOT WANTED HERE, NO PROBLEM, YOU WILL HEAR NO MORE FROM ME. THANKS.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
FINAL THOUGHTS FROM ME ON THIS SUBJECT...

Your 10 year son does not have much experience so I would be ok with him thinking that you can judge a book (or filter in this case) by its cover.
WE WERE NOT JUDGING THE COVER, BUT THE INTERIOR CONSTRUCTION.

But instead one of your first posts is calling out Fram.
MAYBE SO, BUT ONE OF THE FIRST REPLIES WAS SOMEONE CALLING ME OUT.

Been here a few years and I don't post too much. I spend a lot of time reading and thinking before posting.
LIKEWISE. I HAVE BEEN HERE OVER 4 MONTHS, AND HAVE A GRAND TOTAL OF JUST 20 POSTS. I WAS EARLIER CRITICIZED FOR THE SMALL NUMBER.

Wisdom is not a time or how many posts are made.
THAT WAS MY POINT. I DIDN'T JUDGE ANYONE BY THEIR POST NUMBER, BUT I WAS JUDGED!

AGAIN, I HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST WHATSOEVER WHAT FILTERS ANYONE ELSE USES. IF MY OBSERVATION IS NOT WANTED HERE, NO PROBLEM, YOU WILL HEAR NO MORE FROM ME. THANKS.


Never mind. You are not getting it. (I was using the comment of a "book by its cover" as a example)

You had your say with the Fram is "junk" with no proof other than cutting open one (or maybe seeing photos of one) but ignore all the engines out there that are running fine to hundreds of thousands of miles with NO problems.

My reply was setting your "junk" comment straight for many others who trust this board for FACTS.

In today's marketplace, most products will get you to the end with no problems. The lawyers make sure of that.

We will agree to disagree. No need to yell.

This board needs to be based on facts. It has been and many are trying to keep it that way.

Take care, Bill

 

[adamg]

I use Wix on my current vehicle, but all I ever used before that was cheapo Frams. Never had a problem. I don't see anything wrong with them as long they are not in an extended OCI.

I never bothered to cut one of my old Frams open, but has anyone here opened one up to find a failure of the internal components?

I've read some stuff on the Internet (the guys who cut filters open), and they all show the cardboard construction, etc, but I also think it would only be fair that they at least test them for 5k, then cut them open, see if anything fell apart inside.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Bill in Utah]

I've cut open EVERY filter I've used in my engines (and friends, family that I change oil) for over 30 years and until last year never had a issue or problem.

Honestly, I've cut open hundreds of Frams and they all have been fine.

I've posted MANY cut open used filters here @ BITOG over the last 6 years.

Take care, bill

 

[demarpaint]

I stopped using them years ago, because I joined BITOG. I probably logged well over 25 years using them, and NEVER had a problem either. There are much better filters for the money, but a Fram filter never caused me or anyone I installed them for a problem.

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

We will agree to disagree. No need to yell.

This board needs to be based on facts. It has been and many are trying to keep it that way.

Take care, Bill



You are "not getting it". The ALL CAPS was used solely to differentiate who was saying what. You misunderstood. I was not yelling at all.

Might want to read the following very carefully, especially near the end, where it tells who makes "The worst four filters on the market".


http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

We will agree to disagree. No need to yell.

This board needs to be based on facts. It has been and many are trying to keep it that way.

Take care, Bill



You are "not getting it". The ALL CAPS was used solely to differentiate who was saying what. You misunderstood. I was not yelling at all.

Might want to read the following very carefully, especially near the end, where it tells who makes "The worst four filters on the market".


http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html


Again. Please show me all the engines that have failed and the class action law suits.

Read a little just in this thread. You say "junk" and many others with ACTUAL experience (and miles) have run Frams with NOT A SINGLE PROBLEM.

A "junk" filter would have issues. Frams have not.

Also, your link for "data" is almost 10 years old. Also his comment;

Quote:
Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place.


Now lets take that statement (which is almost 10 years old) and tell the truth...

20 year old Fram filter photos

If you spent some time looking here you'd find that his comment above is WRONG if he is basing his findings that the end caps are "cardboard" (they are not) and filter is glued in place (most filters are).

Frams have always been made that way.

So right away, his "study" is flawed due to Frams always made that way and his paper is almost 10 years old.

Trust me, I don't make this stuff up. I don't work for Fram or any other company who profits here at BITOG.

My total interest is making sure that ACCURATE statements are made so the thousands that come to this site and trust it for the straight scoop (and take the info found here back to other sites) is factual.

It is becoming harder and harder since there is less and less members here willing to deal with threads like this. They are leaving and just saying the @$&#% with it.

Maybe someday I'll not give a damm and do the same.

Take care, Bill

 

[Johnny]

If you want to believe 10-year old data, that's all right. I've just highlighted two things that are no longer up to date. Shell has owned both Pennzoil & Quaker State since 2002. Pennzoil has had two "n" in it for over 100 years. This report has a lot of mistakes and misplaced facts, but is full of opinion.

Penzoil

This filter is a Fram! It is the exact same design as the Fram Extra Guard filter and it is junk. On the up side, it costs $1 less than the Fram version.

Quaker State

This is another Fram Extra Guard that I have seen at K-mart. It used to be a Purolator, but Quaker State is now owned/controlled by Penzoil...

Return to the Main Page

This page is maintained by Russell W. Knize and was last updated 09/07/99.

Neither of these filters are made by FRAM. They are now made by Purolator.

Further up in this article he state the NAPA gold and silver are the same filter. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a big difference in these two filters. The Gold is a very good filter, but the Silver is very cheaply made and I don't believe WIX makes the Silver. Last report I received they were made in South America.

It has always puzzled me how one man, who's credentials I know nothing about, can put together a report based on his opinion, and the whole world decides this is the oil filter gospel.

Oh well, to each his own.

 

[OVERKILL]

I personally don't use FRAM filters. Why? because I don't think their construction warrants their price.

It doesn't mean they don't work. But to me, they are not worth what they cost, especially when you can get a filter that is obviously superior in its construction; like a Purolator, Champ, WIX, Donaldson or Fleetguard for the same or less money.

Bill is 100% correct here. They are not junk (and don't worry, I've called them that too) and on a passenger car with a normal oil change interval, they are adequate.

Are they adequate for extended drains? No.

If they were, FRAM wouldn't make a separate filter with metal end caps for extended drains. But they do.

There have been situations (like that with Cummins) where FRAM filters HAVE failed. Cummins condemns their use, and really, with Cummins' own Fleetguard brand being readily available, I cannot fathom why somebody would use a FRAM instead of a Fleetguard.

But, on a CAR, they are adequate. Not the best. Not the worst. Adequate.

So they are not junk. They are simply mediocre.

 

[Quest]

I'm never too tired to fight ignorance and misrepresentation of information here so long as I'm not overwhelmed with life/work.

To the horror of most regular BITOG posters: I do use FRAM orange can of doom every now and then, esp. whenever CT has a sale or when I can't get ST due to time constraints.

Both Bill and Overkill are right on getting the facts straight. Fram, for what it's worth, will get the job done, period. Are there any better construction quality oil filters out there? The answer is affirmative. Are there any oil filters out there that will beat the perceived construction quality/price ratio of a Fram, I must say yeah.

Is Fram seriously so bad? Don't think so for other than genuine factory OE filters from stealerships and such, the most popular aftermarket oil filter brands used here for servicing hundreds of millions of vehicles north of 49th parallel is, you'd guessed it, Fram!

Does it get the job done? Yes! Has there been any oil filter quality-related catastrophic failures that ended up in a lawsuit here? Not that I'm aware of since the day I start owning/driving a vehicle 20+yrs ago (I was also a provincially-certified mech back then, if you care to know me more).

I have since moved on , went back to school and got my academic discipline straightened up nicely, and I have research-quality thesis and papers for that matter.

Just like many avg joes on the internet: internet is literally filled with all kinds of garbage, heresays and half-truths based on personal (unproven) testimonials, observations, etc. The way many of these "urban-legands" and so-called "facts" are spread by rumours and fears. Guess what? In this continent, such practices seem to be very popular, could it be due to lack of academic discipline? Or is it simply because of the sheer stubborness of some social groups?

Regardless of what it is, I found that 10-yr old postings RE: Fram filter to be based on unproven personal observations, mixed with half truths and lots of subjective speculations that gives very little value to the information, if not very little credibility to the poster (from an academic perspective).

In order to bring value and credibility to postings I strongly encourage a positive observations (if facts cannot be provided from academic/research bodies) with proper common-sense. Simply slamming the door shut with subjective opinions won't give the rest of the posters a good impression on you, and w/o common sense to back things up, it makes subsequent postings to be childish, if nor arrogant at-best.

My 2c's worth.

Quest-TD

BTW: I have and currently using orange doom can in my wifey's 04 camry for AutoRx rinse. Am I worried about engine throwing a rod? Not unless the rod in-question is poorly casted and hardened improperly. Should I be worried about Fram causing failures? Betta ask all other millions of Fram oil filter users out there.....

 

[addyguy]

I've been using Fram's for years as well, never had a problem. They are, by far, the cheapest filter you can get up here. Next filter 'up the ladder', from what I can see, is about 30-40% more. Does the next filter up the ladder protect 30-40% more? I don't feel it does on a less than 10k OCI....