ill try to keep this short. a few years ago i read about a guy that built race transmissions. he found out that if he put a qt of engine oil in the transmission it would last longer. so i started putting two qts of rear end grease in my transmission, it worked real well. hear in the last mo. i was talking to a dif guy , he was putting all hyd oil in his race transmission. a strange thing it raised his stall speed by 200 rpm. why? cause the torqueconverter was cavatating, but only for 2 seconds, i dont think its a problem. ok my big Q would hyd oil work on the street? now dont just dismiss off hand, think about it.
dodge trans fulid
- Thread starter morris
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
Quote:
so i started putting two qts of rear end grease in my transmission
Morris ..are you saying that you put 2 quarts of differential/gear oil in an automatic trans? I assume so due to the later reference to stall speed.
This is not a good thing.
A hydraulic oil will work in the sense that water would work in a brake system. Sure it will, until.... Well, it's not quite that much of a difference, but the only reason they don't use hydraulic oil is for all the switching/clutching/locking mechanisms in the trans. Otherwise one "transmission" fluid basically works like another. It transmits power in fluid from.
so i started putting two qts of rear end grease in my transmission
Morris ..are you saying that you put 2 quarts of differential/gear oil in an automatic trans? I assume so due to the later reference to stall speed.
This is not a good thing.
A hydraulic oil will work in the sense that water would work in a brake system. Sure it will, until.... Well, it's not quite that much of a difference, but the only reason they don't use hydraulic oil is for all the switching/clutching/locking mechanisms in the trans. Otherwise one "transmission" fluid basically works like another. It transmits power in fluid from.
I'd just spend my money on a quality fluid. Redline, Amsoil, Schaeffer's are just three that come to mind. All make excellent products.
If I still have an itch afterward you can look at a Magnefine filter, a spin on filter system (perhaps with bypass), or maybe 1 of those 2 options after a aftermarket cooler.
Many MANY companies bust their hump trying to make the best racing fluids. No reason to mix stuff "just because". Especially in your transmission.
If I still have an itch afterward you can look at a Magnefine filter, a spin on filter system (perhaps with bypass), or maybe 1 of those 2 options after a aftermarket cooler.
Many MANY companies bust their hump trying to make the best racing fluids. No reason to mix stuff "just because". Especially in your transmission.
sorry i didnt say it right. my friends race car had the higher stall, its a race car he runs it at top rpm on the line waiting for the green, no longer than 2 sec i dont drive my 2001 dodge v6 with a 42 trans like that. but i have used two qts of rear end grease in chrysler trans, 727,904,42 for decades, with no trouble. if you look at the vis charts you will see that 90 gear grease is about the same as 40 engine oil. the chart for gear grease and engine oil is different. i think ill just stick with the two qts, i know it works
wow
MolaKule
Staff member
Hi ,morris; remmber Wichita well, lived in the area for over 20 years.
I have to disagree with any practice or statement that says just because certain fluids have similar viscosites, they can be used without impunity.
This in my view is a dangerous practice.
Each lubricant fluid has a specific application and is made of specific base oils with a specific additive package to address that specific application.
Just becuse some mix worked temporarily doesn't mean it is good for long term use.
An ATF is a specialized hydraulic fluid with a very expensive and complex additive package meant to transfer energy, cool the transmission, and to provide a certain measure of wear control. Adding a different oil can only harm the component in the long term.
I would like to know how this person determined it raised his stall speed and to what advantage? The design of the torque converter, its vanes, pitch angle of the vanes, diameter, etc determines stall speed. Also, how did he determine that caviation was occurring and what supposed advantage resulted from cavitation?
Regarding cavitation: next to nuclear fusion and fission, the study of fluid dynamics has shown that cavitation forces are some of the most destructive forces in nature:
Quote:
Cavitation is, in many cases, an undesirable occurrence. In devices such as propellers and pumps, cavitation causes a great deal of noise, damage to components, vibrations, and a loss of efficiency.
When the cavitation bubbles collapse, they force energetic liquid into very small volumes, thereby creating spots of high temperature and emitting shock waves, the latter of which are a source of noise. The noise created by cavitation is a particular problem for military submarines, as it increases the chances of being detected by passive sonar.
Although the collapse of a cavity is a relatively low-energy event, highly localized collapses can erode metals, such as steel, over time. The pitting caused by the collapse of cavities produces great wear on components and can dramatically shorten a propeller or pump's lifetime.
After a surface is initially affected by cavitation, it tends to erode at an accelerating pace. The cavitation pits increase the turbulence of the fluid flow and create crevasses that act as nucleation sites for additional cavitation bubbles. The pits also increase the components' surface area and leave behind residual stresses. This makes the surface more prone to stress corrosion.[1]
This is from WIKI and you can see that cavitation is a very destructive force.
So let's dispell these myths before someone's hard-earned money gets wiped out by myths that have no basis in fact.
I have to disagree with any practice or statement that says just because certain fluids have similar viscosites, they can be used without impunity.
This in my view is a dangerous practice.
Each lubricant fluid has a specific application and is made of specific base oils with a specific additive package to address that specific application.
Just becuse some mix worked temporarily doesn't mean it is good for long term use.
An ATF is a specialized hydraulic fluid with a very expensive and complex additive package meant to transfer energy, cool the transmission, and to provide a certain measure of wear control. Adding a different oil can only harm the component in the long term.
I would like to know how this person determined it raised his stall speed and to what advantage? The design of the torque converter, its vanes, pitch angle of the vanes, diameter, etc determines stall speed. Also, how did he determine that caviation was occurring and what supposed advantage resulted from cavitation?
Regarding cavitation: next to nuclear fusion and fission, the study of fluid dynamics has shown that cavitation forces are some of the most destructive forces in nature:
Quote:
Cavitation is, in many cases, an undesirable occurrence. In devices such as propellers and pumps, cavitation causes a great deal of noise, damage to components, vibrations, and a loss of efficiency.
When the cavitation bubbles collapse, they force energetic liquid into very small volumes, thereby creating spots of high temperature and emitting shock waves, the latter of which are a source of noise. The noise created by cavitation is a particular problem for military submarines, as it increases the chances of being detected by passive sonar.
Although the collapse of a cavity is a relatively low-energy event, highly localized collapses can erode metals, such as steel, over time. The pitting caused by the collapse of cavities produces great wear on components and can dramatically shorten a propeller or pump's lifetime.
After a surface is initially affected by cavitation, it tends to erode at an accelerating pace. The cavitation pits increase the turbulence of the fluid flow and create crevasses that act as nucleation sites for additional cavitation bubbles. The pits also increase the components' surface area and leave behind residual stresses. This makes the surface more prone to stress corrosion.[1]
This is from WIKI and you can see that cavitation is a very destructive force.
So let's dispell these myths before someone's hard-earned money gets wiped out by myths that have no basis in fact.
Last edited:
well to be truthfull i dont have much respect for the transmissions chrysler make lately. in 1967 i bought a 1965 chrysler 300L in a mater of 5 years it was overhuled 2 times. where i take a shot at chrysler is going to electronics to control the trans, the hydraulic controls worked just fine. if ATF is a specialized hydraulic fluid is so great then why do so many newer trans go bad. i dont mean to disrespect any one. but i like thick fulid in a trans, it has worked for me, and ill do it again. as for cavitation i ran milling machine that had 240 inchs of travel, there was a small lube pump it ran a thick oil the pump ran under cavatation all the time, it ran like that for 5 years. i think ill run the thicker oil, but not to much of it.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
They've gotten better after about a decade of writing the book on how not to design ..or at least part price ..a trans. Developed a paranoia that wasn't all that irrational.
That said, morris, I don't think I would attempt to re-engineer fluids on my own.
That said, morris, I don't think I would attempt to re-engineer fluids on my own.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
if ATF is a specialized hydraulic fluid is so great then why do so many newer trans go bad. i dont mean to disrespect any one. but i like thick fulid in a trans, it has worked for me, and ill do it again. as for cavitation i ran milling machine that had 240 inchs of travel, there was a small lube pump it ran a thick oil the pump ran under cavatation all the time, it ran like that for 5 years. i think ill run the thicker oil, but not to much of it.
A differential oil in an ATF is a suicide mission since the EP package has a strong sulfur-phoshorous component that can degrade just about every component.
The thick oil in a milling machine pump is a far cry from the torque converter and oil pump(s) in an automobile AT.
The question as to how you determine if cavitation is occurring, and the supposed advantage of cavitation has not been answered.
In an AT, each valve, valve body, each piston, each band actuator, each clutchpate and pressure plate has been designed with a specific fluid in mind, and that fluid is ATF.
But then again, it's your pocket or your friends pocketbook.
Why do new transmissions fail? Racing without a racing kit installed, pulling heavy lods without an oil cooler, owner neglect, wrong fluid, or design or design flaws could could result in a failure.
I have not heard of any new transmission failures of late unless the owner started mucking with the fluid mix.
if ATF is a specialized hydraulic fluid is so great then why do so many newer trans go bad. i dont mean to disrespect any one. but i like thick fulid in a trans, it has worked for me, and ill do it again. as for cavitation i ran milling machine that had 240 inchs of travel, there was a small lube pump it ran a thick oil the pump ran under cavatation all the time, it ran like that for 5 years. i think ill run the thicker oil, but not to much of it.
A differential oil in an ATF is a suicide mission since the EP package has a strong sulfur-phoshorous component that can degrade just about every component.
The thick oil in a milling machine pump is a far cry from the torque converter and oil pump(s) in an automobile AT.
The question as to how you determine if cavitation is occurring, and the supposed advantage of cavitation has not been answered.
In an AT, each valve, valve body, each piston, each band actuator, each clutchpate and pressure plate has been designed with a specific fluid in mind, and that fluid is ATF.
But then again, it's your pocket or your friends pocketbook.
Why do new transmissions fail? Racing without a racing kit installed, pulling heavy lods without an oil cooler, owner neglect, wrong fluid, or design or design flaws could could result in a failure.
I have not heard of any new transmission failures of late unless the owner started mucking with the fluid mix.
Last edited:
i know in my business, allison's ht-740 could use 10w30 motor oil (or merc/dex III ,tes389)in the late 80's. we ran 3 of our ht-740's on 10w30 and never had a problem.
we only did it because allison recommended it! mike
we only did it because allison recommended it! mike
MolaKule
Staff member
What was the (special) circumstance surrounding this suggestion or recommendation, I.E., why was a 10W30 MO recommended instead of ATF? Special operating conditions, temporary fluid because ATF not available, etc? WHy was it suggested when there were so many ATF's to be had?
Please point to an official training video, service manual, tech bulletin, or operators manual from Allison that states a 10W30 MO may be used in lieu of an ATF.
Please point to an official training video, service manual, tech bulletin, or operators manual from Allison that states a 10W30 MO may be used in lieu of an ATF.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Just becuse some mix worked temporarily doesn't mean it is good for long term use.
I'm REALLY glad you said this, Mola. I have read so many times, right here in this forum, of people who use an unapproved ATF and state that it seems to be working just fine and I want to reply: "yeah, but how do you know it isn't causing damage that won't show up for another 10,000 miles?" or something like that.
Just becuse some mix worked temporarily doesn't mean it is good for long term use.
I'm REALLY glad you said this, Mola. I have read so many times, right here in this forum, of people who use an unapproved ATF and state that it seems to be working just fine and I want to reply: "yeah, but how do you know it isn't causing damage that won't show up for another 10,000 miles?" or something like that.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
What was the (special) circumstance surrounding this suggestion or recommendation, I.E., why was a 10W30 MO recommended instead of ATF? Special operating conditions, temporary fluid because ATF not available, etc? WHy was it suggested when there were so many ATF's to be had?
Please point to an official training video, service manual, tech bulletin, or operators manual from Allison that states a 10W30 MO may be used in lieu of an ATF.
the fleet manager at the time was convinced 10w30 shifted better. alot of 10w30's are c-4 (tes 389) approved check shells link provided.
Link:
http://www.islandoilsupply.com/shell/constoil.htm#RIMULA
Here is a cut and paste. see the last paragraph ! C-4 approved! mike
Shell ROTELLA® T Multigrade Oils with XLA
SAE 15w40 and 10w30 Shell ROTELLA T Multigrade SAE 15w40 has been Shell's premium quality, heavy duty multigrade oil for all-season use by fleets with diesel power or a mix of gasoline and diesel power for the past 25 years. During that time, it has become the best selling multigrade heavy duty truck oil in the U.S. Now this product is available with XLA (Extended Life Additive) to provide improved deposit control and improved oxidation stability.
This same premium multigrade oil is available in SAE 10w30 grade to provide even better low temperature performance, and to satisfy the demands of engine builders who recommend lower viscosity oils.
Both viscosity grades of ROTELLA T Multigrade Oil with XLA surpass the performance requirements of API CG-4, CF-4, CF, CE, CD (obsolete),, CC (obsolete), SH, and SG service classifications. They are both Mack EO-L approved and of MIL-L-46152E (obsolete) quality. The 15w40 grade meets the requirements of the API CF 2 and CD II Service Classifications and MIL-L-2104F.
Shell ROTELLA T Multigrade Oils with XLA:
Exceed performance requirements of all of today's severe high performance, fuel efficient, low emission diesel and gasoline engines
Offer superior engine protection
Flow at cold temperatures to help speed cold starts
Reduce fuel and oil consumption compared to an SAE 30 viscosity oil
For gasoline engine applications, the 15w40 grade is an API Energy Conserving oil and the 10w30 grade meets the API Energy Conserving II requirements. The 10w30 grade also meets the new ILSAC GF-1 performance standard. Both oils meet the performance requirements of Allison C-4.
What was the (special) circumstance surrounding this suggestion or recommendation, I.E., why was a 10W30 MO recommended instead of ATF? Special operating conditions, temporary fluid because ATF not available, etc? WHy was it suggested when there were so many ATF's to be had?
Please point to an official training video, service manual, tech bulletin, or operators manual from Allison that states a 10W30 MO may be used in lieu of an ATF.
the fleet manager at the time was convinced 10w30 shifted better. alot of 10w30's are c-4 (tes 389) approved check shells link provided.
Link:
http://www.islandoilsupply.com/shell/constoil.htm#RIMULA
Here is a cut and paste. see the last paragraph ! C-4 approved! mike
Shell ROTELLA® T Multigrade Oils with XLA
SAE 15w40 and 10w30 Shell ROTELLA T Multigrade SAE 15w40 has been Shell's premium quality, heavy duty multigrade oil for all-season use by fleets with diesel power or a mix of gasoline and diesel power for the past 25 years. During that time, it has become the best selling multigrade heavy duty truck oil in the U.S. Now this product is available with XLA (Extended Life Additive) to provide improved deposit control and improved oxidation stability.
This same premium multigrade oil is available in SAE 10w30 grade to provide even better low temperature performance, and to satisfy the demands of engine builders who recommend lower viscosity oils.
Both viscosity grades of ROTELLA T Multigrade Oil with XLA surpass the performance requirements of API CG-4, CF-4, CF, CE, CD (obsolete),, CC (obsolete), SH, and SG service classifications. They are both Mack EO-L approved and of MIL-L-46152E (obsolete) quality. The 15w40 grade meets the requirements of the API CF 2 and CD II Service Classifications and MIL-L-2104F.
Shell ROTELLA T Multigrade Oils with XLA:
Exceed performance requirements of all of today's severe high performance, fuel efficient, low emission diesel and gasoline engines
Offer superior engine protection
Flow at cold temperatures to help speed cold starts
Reduce fuel and oil consumption compared to an SAE 30 viscosity oil
For gasoline engine applications, the 15w40 grade is an API Energy Conserving oil and the 10w30 grade meets the API Energy Conserving II requirements. The 10w30 grade also meets the new ILSAC GF-1 performance standard. Both oils meet the performance requirements of Allison C-4.
now that someone besides me said it, that reminders me that another friend of mine has a 1956 GMC truck with a hydromatic trans. reco mended fluid straight wight 30 engine oil. i think next week ll get a al oil pan for my dodge 42 trans. wish i had a 727 trans
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
