Dodge Quality?

[SatinSilver]

Spark Plug replacement on Ford V6. What a great design.

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Yes sir that was the game plan going in which worked great for the drivers side, but what was to transpire on the passenger side was entirely unforeseen.

To service the wires on the passenger side of a Ford 4.0 SOHC fitted to 2010+ vehicles requires removal of the alternator and/or cracking the cooling system open and removing the heater pipes behind the alternator. Apparently affording 1/4 inch of clearance was of no concern on this vehicle as apparently vehicle assembly was the last stage of consideration for the Ford engineers.

So big heads up fellas!

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Toyota has a lot more defects that any one of us on this board might think.


Check out the 2018 CR Buying Guide and other review guides where Toyota ranks towards the top. Not only in new cars but used cars as well. Funny seeing some of the makes and models that make the list of what to Avoid at All Costs. But someone has to buy them.

 

[PeterPolyol]

That the one where you gotta pull the manifold? Wasn't some gen of the Camry V6 the same way?
I once changed spark plug wires on a Ford SOHC 4.0L with the Explorer manifold...need to open the cooling system or dismount the alternator... just for the plug wires!

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Toyota has a lot more defects that any one of us on this board might think.


Check out the 2018 CR Buying Guide and other review guides where Toyota ranks towards the top. Not only in new cars but used cars as well. Funny seeing some of the makes and models that make the list of what to Avoid at All Costs. But someone has to buy them.


It's weird because if you google specific individual defects on Toyotas you'll find glaring issues- enough to warrant it's own thread TBH which I think might just be in order.

Lately, I'm getting wary of the 'infallability' of CR rankings, but would still take more away from CR than JD Power for any meaningful metrics, except marketing expenditures; I find JD Power rankings are directly correlated to marketing expenditures (ad budget) and "brand renaissance strategies", not surprising because ranking lists are very influiential, certainly. People can do much worse than Toyotas for reliability in general, but they can also do much better in reliability, as well as every other category of automotive motoring.

Also, just to put it in perspective how much influential psychology Toyota purchases, that has nothing to do with the objective merits of their vehicles, I mentioned 2016 Toyota spent $2B (Yes, that's one-thousand million dollars) in the US alone, where BMW spent a more reasonable 349.6M USD influencing the American people.

I can't help but wonder if Toyota, the most profitable automaker in history, would have less defects, TSBs and recalls (and less defects in engineering combined with more comprehensive testing) if they redirect just one BILLION dollars from the US-only marketing budget and shovelled it over to engineering? Oh wait, that wouldn't increase the bottom-line at all, no quite the contrary, they could have suffered a sales-slump albeit with a less troublesome fleet.

 

[SatinSilver]

I see you don't have any vehicles in your signature. What vehicles do you own?

 

[StevieC]

Nothing beats doing a Tune-Up on a Ford Aerostar. Wheel removal is involved to get at the plugs. RIDICULOUS trying to do it in the driveway. Especially if plugs are in good/tight.

 

[MCompact]

I've owned cars that CR said to avoid that turned bout to be flawless and I've owned CR "Recommended" models that had numerous issues. That said, I'd still like to have a W10 MR2 or an A80 Supra in the garage. Heck, I'd take a Toyota 86 if it had @100 more hp.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
People that naturally seek out Toyota as "the superior product" simply do not know any better.


From the only place that statistically tabulates long term reliability:

www.Truedelta.com

Reliability by model #1 = Camry
Reliability by generation #1 = Camry
Reliability by brand across the model range #1 = Toyota

In fact, certain years of Camry are 10X more reliable than certain years of Passat. That's an order of magnitude more reliable.

From 2010 through 2017, Toyota vehicles across the entire model range averaged 15 repairs per 100 cars. Dodge 36, Chevy 38, Tesla averaged 88. Furthermore, the cost and type of non warranty repairs was also far lower for Toyota.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Hmm, more influential literature based on surveys and testimony parading as scientific data, nothing new here. Are you aware of truedelta's data pool? Extremely small sample size, where all reports are delivered from third parties. The "Get A Quote" buttons littering every page defnitely doesn't help. I'd also have to be born yesterday to believe that they're the only ranking site to not have been "reached out" to by the people spending billions per annum on positive influencers.

Ranking schemes like this are rife with exploits and loopholes (See JD Power). Collect data from the participants you want that will provide data that likely will accumulate into results that you want. It's outrageous that a car model with several class action law suits against it for major engine defects can be ranked as #1 in reliability out of all the vehicles out there. I get how easy it is for a Camry owner who consumes this type of publication and had his head gasket replaced under warranty would be deathly afraid of every other car brand and model. If Camry is #1 and it needed a head gasket or a valvetrain replacement, or a short-block replacement (see recalls on Toyota V6 valve-springs) then every other car must certainly need a new engine annually and will leave them stranded on the road, right? Haha, they just don't know any better.


Put shortly, not many other vehicle models routinely suffer from "class actionable" engine destroying defects like persistent and excessive oil burning- likely the most legal-actioned brand ever for unacceptable consumption and major repairs like head gaskets (for decades across many engine series and models).


Short version: Toyota repeatedly ranking #1 doesn't add up.


I'll start a topic about the power of psychology and self-fulfilling prophecies and how it shapes vehicle regard.

 

[PeterPolyol]

update: looks like you're only allowed a few clicks on truedelta before they start hounding your to subscribe. I caught some of the issues people complained about, as well as some of the things TD wrote about the Camry to get an idea of what they're about. On a competitor, there were complaints about a BSM monitor stuck on. Even if it's just dirt around the sensor, that's considered a repair.

Then on the Toyota side it's all roses and excuses: (paraphraseing what I read moments ago) "It's as much about what Toyota hasn't changed in the Camry than what it has" then go on to mention how long it took for them to get away from 4 speed autos and PFI etc. I really have to say that no other automaker has it's luddite behavior spun so hardcore into praise and admiration. (speculation of sponsorship) It's actually really offensive to think that the most profitable automaker in history is the least innovative one. They'll happily USE their competition to do the R&D legwork for them, while purchasing carbon credits from others just to remain able to sell old inefficient engines in their big movers. Toyota wants to keep net profits maxed while letting the others do the skilled, hard work for them. They'll stagnate for decades on relevant market-bound engineering, making sure to trick the old junk out for as much profit as possible because their fanbase doesn't know or care that their 2016 Corolla still has a 4 speed auto. "It's business" is a the mantra, sure, who's business? Not anyone voluntarily crying "That's business"! I'm not in the business of getting pee'd on while an overpaid publicity team tells me it's Spring showers.

 

[doitmyself]

I'm a member at TrueDelta. To my knowledge, their data is based on voluntary member input. They have about 109,000 subscribers owning about 130,000 vehicles. There are over 250 million vehicles in the U.S.. Wikipedia says they will use a data pool as little as 25 vehicles vs. 100 for Consumer Reports.

I find it hard to believe that TrueDelta's data represents any vehicle's reliability accurately. They claim that they use statistical methods. I question who actually subscribes and submits quarterly data. Certainly not the "average" general public that doesn't even know TrueDelta exists. It's more likely people "in the know": Either car enthusiasts that want moral support for their purchase choice or those that have been burned badly and want to get the word out. That's not a random sample which is required for statistical analysis.

 

[02SE]

^^^^

Yep, people rarely go out of their way to talk about products or service they are happy with. They are usually only motivated to say something, when they are NOT happy with something.

 

[PeterPolyol]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
^^^^

Yep, people rarely go out of their way to talk about products or service they are happy with. They are usually only motivated to say something, when they are NOT happy with something.

Agree with you both. As for the quote, 02SE you're totally right. Really the only way gushing reviews are obtained is when the Manufacturer/Dealer/Market Contractor approaches the customer pandering for positive feedback data. Some brands are much more apt to do this than others, because of the marketing value they get from the acquired data.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
FWIW, I've read a number of comments stating that the current Charger platform is not aging well... this coming from LEOs. Honestly, I'm not sure what to think of it as those LEO vehicles may be utilized differently than how I would utilize one. Still, I tend to keep my cars 10+ years, way past warranty period, so this gives me pause.



The LEO cars, like any non-SRT, get different suspension bits, less-nice interior....etc. I think it was SteveSRT8 who commented that an R/T owner suffering from premature front-end wear issues could just go with the SRT parts and eliminate the problem entirely.

If you are concerned, go take a higher mileage SRT for a drive (since you aren't shopping below that point based on our previous discussions). Make your own observations on how it is aging.


After owning dozens and dozens of cars across almost 50 years with a bias towards big engines and higher performance I can truly say my 300C SRT8 has been by far the best one ever in terms of reliability. Past 110k miles and going very strong, runs quicker than it did new, and solid as a rock. Bilstein shocks, Brembo 4 piston brakes on each corner, real AMG tags on rear end and trans, so many high end features on a car that sold at $39,900 in 06.

You couldn't touch it then for price/performance and it's still hard to beat today. I was just offered 19k for it last month!

I could care less what the usual naysayers have to tell about Chrysler. I never bought any vehicle out of brand loyalty. I buy what I like.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
... I never bought any vehicle out of brand loyalty. I buy what I like.

^^^(I thought the need to quote this again.)

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
That Multi Cylinder Displacement that Dodge uses would be a deal breaker for me unless I was so desperate for the truck that I'd be willing to install an MDS delete kit as soon as I got the truck home. GM calls theirs Active Fuel Management but it does the same thing. There's a delete kit available for GM too.



Chrysler's system is good. I've known people who had issues w/GMs system. Have never known anyone with any issues w/Chrysler's.


MDS works excellent. I have had two RAM 1500's with. AFM in the 2008 Tahoe I had was junk. After that Tahoe no more GM for me.

 

[StevieC]

GM would have some really fine products if they would just go a little further in some areas but it seems like the bean counters control everything over there. Not nearly as bad as the 1980's and the plethora of junk coming out at that time but certainly not at the top where they could be.

This can be said for other manufacturers as well but since Dave mentioned his Tahoe I thought I would make my comment based on the stuff my dad an I have repaired before he got sick.

 

[4WD]

Most surveys I have seen have Chevy over Dodge …
I’m not going to produce them since this site discredits surveys that don’t fit thier belief system or prefers “Dave mentioned”

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Most surveys I have seen have Chevy over Dodge …
I’m not going to produce them since this site discredits surveys that don’t fit thier belief system or prefers “Dave mentioned”



Dodge is definately in the dog house with GM no question and I'm a Dodge owner with a father that worked at Chrysler. Now Chev/GM over Dodge/Chrysler no way. The same level of terrible quality on multiple of their products, yes. Better than yester-year, yes for both of them.

There are far too many GM's running around with engine problems, check engine lights on constantly, oil consumption issue and water pump failures not to be. And yes I can tell you all the problems Chrysler has as well just the same. Different in nature but just as numerous.

 

[4WD]

Stevie ~ wish I was always right like you are …