Do you think stiffer springs will help with side to side swaying type motion?

[PoorMans180SX]

You guys remember when the Chevy Cobalt team won the Super Street Time Attack event in 2006? Those cars have arguably one of the worst rear suspension designs... You can make anything handle and ride well, it just takes some work. I agree Tein is probably not the best valving, which makes the biggest difference in how the car feels.

There is a Fit-specific class at Gridlife time attack.

 

[lizpat]

Sure, his original complaint was about excessive body roll, so the suggestions to replace the sway bars (from several different people) are on-point. Rear first is pretty standard for improving handling of FWD cars. It's easy to do and usually makes a nice improvement. One step at a time, don't change several things at once.

It's not really body roll that's the primarily issue, it's the swaying motion when encountering bumps and dips.

1.75 inches lower is a lot, and too much if you want reduced roll. I bet that putting the car half an inch higher does as much or more than a stiffer spring up front. Once you lower beyond a certain amount, body roll gets incrementally worse. For most mcpherson cars the limit with acceptable roll is 1"lower. Also, you will introduce bump steer, and that will make the car react even more to uneven roads.

Since you have coilovers, try a few different heights and when decided get an alignment done as the toe changes with different heights aswell.

I'm willing to play around with the ride height just to experiment. 1.75 inch is within the "recommended range" offered by TEIN. This kit goes as low as 2.3 inches. I was very worried about bumpsteer but happily there have been NO ALIGNMENT ISSUES, NO BUMPSTEER, AND NO GROUND CLEARANCES ISSUES yippeee

 

[MRC01]

It's not really body roll that's the primarily issue, it's the swaying motion when encountering bumps and dips.

Can you clarify that distinction? When you said in the OP, I'm still bothered by the amount of body roll and side to side swaying motion, I (and I think others here too) interpreted "swaying motion" as a synonym for "body roll". How are they different, or what are you describing with these terms?

 

[930.engineering]

Something not mentioned is if he’s got the original wheels and tires, to make sure his scrub radius is reasonably close to oem. If he’s changed the scrub radius from new offset wheels, that will play as he hits things in the road. Does lowering the vehicle have any *notable* effect in altering S.R.?

Good point. Wheel offset does impact straighline stability on uneven pavement significantly.
Lowering doesn't alter scrub radius itself, but it does increase front camber and more camber
affects in tire patch load distribution.
@lizpat, without alignment sheet and some information about overall suspension condition,
wheels and tires, it will be hard to verify your issue, though I too would recommend to raise
the vehicle. Read about roll center, lowering doesn't necessarily translate to reduced roll, esp.
on a McPherson strut car, since you'll likely lower roll center more than the center of gravity!

HOW TO MAKE YOUR CAR HANDLE

Roll Center Understood

www.thecartech.com

Roll Centre and Roll Moment – How To Adjust And Tune Suspension Secrets

Roll Centre and Roll Moment - The roll centre positions of your front and rear suspension geometry are key features affecting the lateral...

suspensionsecrets.co.uk

The Ultimate guide to Suspension and Handling Part 2, Controlling Body Motion - MotoIQ

The Ultimate Guide to Suspension and Handling: Part II – Controlling Body Motion by Mike Kojima Previously, we addressed the most important aspect of handling, the tires. The next important…

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[MRC01]

That (lowering) seems to be the root of the problem. Lowering is typically about appearance, not performance or ride quality. In fact, it often worsens performance and ride quality by throwing various suspension settings out of whack with each other.

 

[lizpat]

Then you already know the answer. Throw that Tein garbage into the closest trash can and get a set of Bilsteins.
BC is the same low-price 'quality' as Tein. Bilstein B6/B8 are excellent value, leagues ahead of D2, K-Sport, Tein
and BC etc. without breaking the bank.
Did you get a proper alignment? If not, get it done. If you already did, post the alignment sheet here. I'll have a
look at it (suspension development engineer and former racing driver). What tires do you run?
Stiffer sway bars/anti-roll bars will help reducing roll and improve initial steering, but you need proper dampers
and proper state suspension bushings incl. correct alignment first.

@MRC01: Lizpat's car doesn't suffer from understeer. He doesn't even mention high-G cornering. So understeer
is likely not an issue. Proper dampers and bushings provided, stiffer front (or ideally both front and rear) springs
and both front and rear sway bars would help to reduce roll without too big penalty. I never ever felt happy with
a bigger rear sway bar only. My guess is, many people just do the rear bar since it's an easy swap and cheaper,
while the front sway bar is MUCH harder to swap on very most cars. Even more I do know from experience that
nearly all those who did the rear bar only never drove the same car equipped with stiffer bars both front and rear.
Doesn't that tell it all? I promise, I can get any FWD car neutral with stiff sway bars and stiff springs on both axles.

ps
probably best to swap the car but guess budget is tight

I am very seriously considering the Bilstein B14's. Why I hadn't gone with them the first time is because the lowering range is only 0 to 1.12 inches (I'd like it at least 1.5 inches.) What do you know about BC Racing? They're not quality? The reviews online are mixed to be honest but they DO offer a lot of adjustment and replacement dampers should are only 90 bucks.

 

[930.engineering]

I am very seriously considering the Bilstein B14's. Why I hadn't gone with them the first time is because the lowering range is only 0 to 1.12 inches (I'd like it at least 1.5 inches.)

Which they do for a reason. Modesty is a merit when it comes to suspension kits and lowering.
A proper suspension requires travel. And you also don't want too much lowering for the reason
mentioned by Jetronic, me and others repeatedly - retain roll center. Please read the links above.

What do you know about BC Racing? They're not quality? The reviews online are mixed to be honest but they DO offer a lot of adjustment and replacement dampers should are only 90 bucks.

To begin with, I never did and never will buy any of these Chinese and Chinese-like coilovers. I had
several of them in my hands and I read lots of reviews over more than a decade. Despite varying
names they actually all come from the same two, three or four factories in China and Taiwan. They're
designed and built to satisfy the stance crowd, not for those seeking for driving pleasure. You'd be
amazed to see for what they sell to the importer. Plenty of trade margin! Vendors often make less
money when selling Bilstein, Koni or Öhlins. Don't get me wrong please, but you get what you pay
for. Despite this, both the B6, B8 and B12 kits are bargains. They ride better than the B14 coilovers
and they cost less. Register on any racing forum and I'm certain, the vast majority will tell you the
same.
I a similar situation I'd certainly renew all suspension bushings, get some B6, keep the stock springs,
fit some decent tires, get a good alignment thereafter and call it a day. B12 Pro if you really need to
lower it, ARB kit if roll is still an issue.
You'll most certainly never need replacements for Bilstein B6/B8 dampers, at least not for this car.
If you however feel a need after 100kmls get the Bilsteins rebuilt. There are chances you'll need two
or three sets of Tein or BC dampers on the same distance.

 

[PandaBear]

I went back to reread what you wrong originally. It seems like you are used to a car with longer wheel base and wider between left and right (coming from a Corolla). You try to make it "better" by using stiffer springs, maybe stiffer sway bar. You want it to stay flat without rolling or leaning when turning, I assuming you say sway and roll being different, but I am not sure if you means you are drifting your rear wheel / oversteer at turn instead.

Changing springs and sway bar may help a little at the expense of harsh ride. I think you are better off just selling the Fit and go for a wider longer wheelbase car. S2000? BRZ? 86? FiST? Civic Si? Miata? Just throwing some idea out there, you cannot ask for too much from a Fit.

 

[mightymousetech]

You guys remember when the Chevy Cobalt team won the Super Street Time Attack event in 2006? Those cars have arguably one of the worst rear suspension designs... You can make anything handle and ride well, it just takes some work. I agree Tein is probably not the best valving, which makes the biggest difference in how the car feels.

There is a Fit-specific class at Gridlife time attack.

Ya, you just have to make the rear springs stiff enough that the rear suspension is essentially solid and take it out of the equation. The Real-time TSX cars were running 3-4000 lb/in springs in the rear to essentially make it solid.

 

[930.engineering]

I think you are better off just selling the Fit and go for a wider longer wheelbase car. S2000? BRZ? 86? FiST? Civic Si? Miata?

Guess that's what most of us have thought quietly. I don't think it's his last car ever.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

That (lowering) seems to be the root of the problem. Lowering is typically about appearance, not performance or ride quality. In fact, it often worsens performance and ride quality by throwing various suspension settings out of whack with each other.

Yeah, no racecars are lowered...

 

[PoorMans180SX]

Good point. Wheel offset does impact straighline stability on uneven pavement significantly.
Lowering doesn't alter scrub radius itself, but it does increase front camber and more camber
affects in tire patch load distribution.
@lizpat, without alignment sheet and some information about overall suspension condition,
wheels and tires, it will be hard to verify your issue, though I too would recommend to raise
the vehicle. Read about roll center, lowering doesn't necessarily translate to reduced roll, esp.
on a McPherson strut car, since you'll likely lower roll center more than the center of gravity!

HOW TO MAKE YOUR CAR HANDLE

Roll Center Understood

www.thecartech.com

Roll Centre and Roll Moment – How To Adjust And Tune Suspension Secrets

Roll Centre and Roll Moment - The roll centre positions of your front and rear suspension geometry are key features affecting the lateral...

suspensionsecrets.co.uk

The Ultimate guide to Suspension and Handling Part 2, Controlling Body Motion - MotoIQ

The Ultimate Guide to Suspension and Handling: Part II – Controlling Body Motion by Mike Kojima Previously, we addressed the most important aspect of handling, the tires. The next important…

motoiq.com

McPherson front suspensions don’t fain or lose much camber over their entire stroke, let alone being lowered two inches. He probably needs more negative camber if he’a really chasing handling.

 

[930.engineering]

I wasn't saying that because it's significant in this case, I just tried to answer meep's question as precisely as possible: No, lowering doesn't affect scrub radius itself, but as even on a McPherson strut there is some camber gain (say -0°30' or half a degree, maybe more, maybe less), tire patch load distribution will 'somewhat' change. That's what I guess meep wanted to know.

 

[MRC01]

Yeah, no racecars are lowered...

Purpose built race cars run at their designed ride height. The problems happen when you lower a car below its designed ride height, especially significant changes (more than an inch). That changes several other factors which are not always compensated by the lowering kits, and may not even be possible to compensate given the layout / geometry of the car.

Put differently, you would never lower a racecar a couple of inches without making several other changes to the suspension.

 

[lizpat]

"...lowering doesn't necessarily translate to reduced roll, esp.
on a McPherson strut car, since you'll likely lower roll center more than the center of gravity!"

--------------------

This is very interesting! I'm going to read more about this.

There may be a very good reason why the BILSTEIN B14 kit for this car only allows for a 1.1 inch of lowering (whereas the other kits give you 1 to 3 inches)

 

[lizpat]

Which they do for a reason. Modesty is a merit when it comes to suspension kits and lowering.
A proper suspension requires travel. And you also don't want too much lowering for the reason
mentioned by Jetronic, me and others repeatedly - retain roll center. Please read the links above.

Thank you for this! This is very interesting and something I never even thought about!

 

[lizpat]

I went back to reread what you wrong originally. It seems like you are used to a car with longer wheel base and wider between left and right (coming from a Corolla). You try to make it "better" by using stiffer springs, maybe stiffer sway bar. You want it to stay flat without rolling or leaning when turning, I assuming you say sway and roll being different, but I am not sure if you means you are drifting your rear wheel / oversteer at turn instead.

Changing springs and sway bar may help a little at the expense of harsh ride. I think you are better off just selling the Fit and go for a wider longer wheelbase car. S2000? BRZ? 86? FiST? Civic Si? Miata? Just throwing some idea out there, you cannot ask for too much from a Fit.

Everything is a compromise, I'm willing to stick with the FIT (at least for now) because it's fairly special in some ways: uniquely excellent forward visibility (rear visibility being very good as well,) a truly alien and interesting looking forward dashboard design, one of the few cars that still only weighs less than 2600 lbs. (my 2007 Corolla being the other one that weighs only 2600 lbs.)

I bought the FIT with plans to replace the Corolla eventually. Soon after I drove it off the used car dealer's lot, I felt a sense of regret. The simple fact is: I do not need this car and it's way worse than the Corolla in stock form. The Corolla is just fine. The FIT's suspension is awful. Anyways, I'm trying to modify it so that it's more than just a plausible replacement for the Corolla, I want it to be the hands down winner.

 

[Pew]

"...lowering doesn't necessarily translate to reduced roll, esp.
on a McPherson strut car, since you'll likely lower roll center more than the center of gravity!"

--------------------

This is very interesting! I'm going to read more about this.

There may be a very good reason why the BILSTEIN B14 kit for this car only allows for a 1.1 inch of lowering (whereas the other kits give you 1 to 3 inches)

This is a good website to read up about car characteristics.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

Purpose built race cars run at their designed ride height. The problems happen when you lower a car below its designed ride height, especially significant changes (more than an inch). That changes several other factors which are not always compensated by the lowering kits, and may not even be possible to compensate given the layout / geometry of the car.

Put differently, you would never lower a racecar a couple of inches without making several other changes to the suspension.

I’m not talking about purpose built racecars, I’m talking about production based racecars…

 

[IndyIan]

I'd just get the stiffer front springs then and try that first. Front swaybars tend to be hard to remove/install(sub frame drop or removal), and stiffer rear sway bars tend to adjust the handling of the car(towards oversteer) more than they reduce sway on a nose heavy car.