The fact that FRAM has gotten away with producing a royal POS filter in their orange can series is living proof that you do not need a filter or at the very least, its not that important. I think FRAM caught on to this many years ago.
do you really need an oil filter
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Originally Posted By: peterdaniel
The fact that FRAM has gotten away with producing a royal POS filter in their orange can series is living proof that you do not need a filter or at the very least, its not that important. I think FRAM caught on to this many years ago.
Quoted for truth.
While I still feel oil filters are not a bad idea, on a clean running modern engine with a good air filter...I doubt they are doing much good.
The fact that FRAM has gotten away with producing a royal POS filter in their orange can series is living proof that you do not need a filter or at the very least, its not that important. I think FRAM caught on to this many years ago.
Quoted for truth.
While I still feel oil filters are not a bad idea, on a clean running modern engine with a good air filter...I doubt they are doing much good.
IMO oil filter is a safety net in case there is a vacuum related problem in the input, as well as absorbing water that couldn't be evaporated in time. Catching little grits here and there is a side effect that helps too.
Think of it this way, if one should change the oil filter at 15k per manufacture's recommendation due to restricted flow, that means it is restricted due to catching something (water that expands the cellulose or the particles that blocks the flow). If these remains in the oil it either makes the oil less useful or it is wearing out the engine.
Think of it this way, if one should change the oil filter at 15k per manufacture's recommendation due to restricted flow, that means it is restricted due to catching something (water that expands the cellulose or the particles that blocks the flow). If these remains in the oil it either makes the oil less useful or it is wearing out the engine.
Originally Posted By: Spector
Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.
I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.
NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!
is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.
NO One knows! So we use it!
I know and yes it makes a difference. opinions are like anal orifices but facts are facts. When engines got bypass type filters installed oil life increased and engine life somewhat. In the fifties full flow filters became standard engine life greatly increased. Want to argue ? Argue with the SAE scientists and engineers. At work I have noted the difference in wear between bypass only and full flow filters,really noticeable in the bearings [as well as the rest of the engine]. But the airfilter is most important.
Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.
I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.
NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!
is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.
NO One knows! So we use it!
I know and yes it makes a difference. opinions are like anal orifices but facts are facts. When engines got bypass type filters installed oil life increased and engine life somewhat. In the fifties full flow filters became standard engine life greatly increased. Want to argue ? Argue with the SAE scientists and engineers. At work I have noted the difference in wear between bypass only and full flow filters,really noticeable in the bearings [as well as the rest of the engine]. But the airfilter is most important.
Originally Posted By: Beachboy
My dad bought a 1952 Ford pickup brand new, and it had the bypass type oil filter which filtered a small sidestream. Dad never believed in spending money for vehicle maintenance, and he said he never changed that orginal oil filter. On top of that, he'd use the drained oil out of the family car to replenish the pickup. That pickup was still running fine on the original engine when we sold it in 1990 after his death.
My first car in high school was a 1959 imported Ford with a 1.7 liter four cylinder engine. I looked for months for the oil filter on that thing, and I never could find it. Come to find out, it was built without one, as oil filters weren't commonly used in Europe. The sump only held two quarts, so I just changed the oil every couple of months. I only drove it for two years, but I never had any lubrication based problems. I also owned a 1942 Willys MB Jeep. No oil filter on that sucker, either.
Growing up on a farm, none of our farm equipment (tractors, combines, etc) ever came equipped with filters and I can guarantee that the oil was only topped off, never changed. Its obvious the old cast iron engines with their generous tolerances endured a lot more abuse than today's engines.
those engines were tough. Could you imagine the qualityod those engines with the latest technology , better seal material and machine work . Instead of CAD designed down the the least quality /material that will stand up to the emission warranties.
My dad bought a 1952 Ford pickup brand new, and it had the bypass type oil filter which filtered a small sidestream. Dad never believed in spending money for vehicle maintenance, and he said he never changed that orginal oil filter. On top of that, he'd use the drained oil out of the family car to replenish the pickup. That pickup was still running fine on the original engine when we sold it in 1990 after his death.
My first car in high school was a 1959 imported Ford with a 1.7 liter four cylinder engine. I looked for months for the oil filter on that thing, and I never could find it. Come to find out, it was built without one, as oil filters weren't commonly used in Europe. The sump only held two quarts, so I just changed the oil every couple of months. I only drove it for two years, but I never had any lubrication based problems. I also owned a 1942 Willys MB Jeep. No oil filter on that sucker, either.
Growing up on a farm, none of our farm equipment (tractors, combines, etc) ever came equipped with filters and I can guarantee that the oil was only topped off, never changed. Its obvious the old cast iron engines with their generous tolerances endured a lot more abuse than today's engines.
those engines were tough. Could you imagine the qualityod those engines with the latest technology , better seal material and machine work . Instead of CAD designed down the the least quality /material that will stand up to the emission warranties.
Let's put it this way... Why would Manufacturers waste time designing an area of the engine for a Spin-On or cartridge type filter? Think of the money they would save if they could build cars without these parts and without equipping each vehicle with a filter before it leaves the factory. 1 olive out of the jar isn't missed but in volume saves lots of money!
I still think the primary function of the filter is in the break in phase, the filter will catch all the metalic fragments that would quickly kill the engine. After this initial dangerous period the filter is largely not needed, and really does nothing.If using good oil and changing while it still can hold junk in suspension, this gets removed with timely oil changes. If you leave oil to long in service now the filter will get something to catch, gunk that should not really be there, and the problems start.
I'm having a hard time understanding how somebody on BITOG who cares about their oil and engines the way we do, would ever even think about not having an oil filter or what good it does
Granted I'm not from the time where some of these mentioned cars had no filters but dang that's just crazy to me! Heck I wanna add an extra filter, not take one away
Granted I'm not from the time where some of these mentioned cars had no filters but dang that's just crazy to me! Heck I wanna add an extra filter, not take one away
Perhaps they are a logical, rational, opened minded person. How much difference is there between a Fram and no filter at all? Along with many, many others, I ran Fram for a long time with no problem before I discovered I could buy better filters for less. I still something cheap like ST or catch Purlator Plus on sale.
I devoutly stick to YB Pennzoil, but have not been sold on the idea of more expensive oil filters being any better for my caror truck.
I devoutly stick to YB Pennzoil, but have not been sold on the idea of more expensive oil filters being any better for my caror truck.
Originally Posted By: labman
Perhaps they are a logical, rational, opened minded person. How much difference is there between a Fram and no filter at all?
Possibly
or maybe confused?
Heck maybe I'm cornfused
Still makes no sense to me. But a fram is still a filter. A filter that is catching particulates that would other wise would be pumped through all the bearings and such.
Perhaps they are a logical, rational, opened minded person. How much difference is there between a Fram and no filter at all?
Possibly
or maybe confused?
Heck maybe I'm cornfused
Still makes no sense to me. But a fram is still a filter. A filter that is catching particulates that would other wise would be pumped through all the bearings and such.
Steve S - Would you elaborate on the differences you observed between bypass and full flow filters? I always thought that bypass filters would remove particles more efficiently, but full flow filters give greater protection for the engine in the event of large particles getting in the oil. Large steam turbines routinely use bypass filtration to achieve clean oil, though I think they are starting to add full flow filtration systems. Haven't kept up as I've been retired for over ten years.
I also thought the logic behind adding bypass filtration to cars was to go longer between oil changes because you could achieve much cleaner oil... Not trying to start any arguments, just discussion.
I also thought the logic behind adding bypass filtration to cars was to go longer between oil changes because you could achieve much cleaner oil... Not trying to start any arguments, just discussion.
I think the argument should be based on time and miles.
You dont need an oil filter If....
1. you change out your oil every 3000 miles
2. you change out your oil every 3 months regardless of mileage.
If you are going 6-8-10,000 miles with out a filter and you have a chunk of carbon, or a magical piece of sludge form and break off, or anything that can cause scoring or an obstruction, then you really SHOULD invest in a $2.86 supertech.
Besides, if you have a filter mount on your car engine, shouldent you go ahead an use it?
You dont need an oil filter If....
1. you change out your oil every 3000 miles
2. you change out your oil every 3 months regardless of mileage.
If you are going 6-8-10,000 miles with out a filter and you have a chunk of carbon, or a magical piece of sludge form and break off, or anything that can cause scoring or an obstruction, then you really SHOULD invest in a $2.86 supertech.
Besides, if you have a filter mount on your car engine, shouldent you go ahead an use it?
Of course you don't need an oil filter! It's cosmetic and just a way for them to take your money. What a question!
Okay, do you need an appendix????
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The best argument for a filter is the obvious point that if they were not needed, the OEM's would surely not bother to integrate them into their design.
Question to Mr. Allan, as you believe the filter necessary as designed into engine is it for lifetime usage or really as I believe most important in the initial break in phase when the most metal frags are formed, and possibly/probably in sufficent amounts to cause early engine failure.
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Well, while I imagine it's critical in the break in part of an engine's life, I'd say that an engine produces too many combustion byproducts to go without full time and perpetual filtration. Otherwise, they would have a superior OEM filter (currently produced at a price point) and hollow shells for aftermarket.
Mr. Allan would you also care to comment on the idea that if oil is changed frequently enough and is of high enough quality to still suspend contaminants, that the filter will most of the time will really catch nothing, and since its essentially doing nothing, then not needed.
Originally Posted By: jldcol
Mr. Allan would you also care to comment on the idea that if oil is changed frequently enough and is of high enough quality to still suspend contaminants, that the filter will most of the time will really catch nothing, and since its essentially doing nothing, then not needed.
Not directed at me but, am I missing something?
If contaminants are floating in the oil and it is pumped like normal through the filter, won't the filter catch them like it's suppose to? Hints the reason for a filter.
Mr. Allan would you also care to comment on the idea that if oil is changed frequently enough and is of high enough quality to still suspend contaminants, that the filter will most of the time will really catch nothing, and since its essentially doing nothing, then not needed.
Not directed at me but, am I missing something?
If contaminants are floating in the oil and it is pumped like normal through the filter, won't the filter catch them like it's suppose to? Hints the reason for a filter.
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