do you really need an oil filter

[SargeBB]

Steve S is correct. Some of us are old enough to remember the day when an oil filter was optional equipment. I had a series 2 1955 Chevrolet pickup that didn't have an oil filter. I had to overhaul it at 60,000 miles and never saw a filthier engine inetrnally. Most engines back then had bypass filters, but they'd typically go 75,000 between overhauls and (by the stndards of the day) were much 'cleaner' internally.
Now, while I certainly agree that the AIR filter is absolutely the most critical, the full-flow oil filter is also very important. Wix, Baldwin, Amsoil, Mobil, Purolator...thankfully, all the above are excellent in either oil or air filters...as are generally all OE's.

 

[pp_rp]

The oil is the lifeblood and the filter is the liver.

 

[Kestas]

My stock 57 Chevy 235 L6 did not have an oil filter.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
My stock 57 Chevy 235 L6 did not have an oil filter.


Our 50's Ford 312 Interceptors (marine) did. They were in a canister, mounted at the back of the engine up top. REALLY easy to change.

 

[XS650]

My 57 Ford has a screw-on oil filter PH8A sized. Also had a paper element air cleaner. Ford was ahead of Chevy in filtration those days.

 

[wander2039]

This thread is tempting me to go 2 years with PureOne's on both my vehicles. Just change them whenever I change the other 3-4 filters but change the oil when needed. Hmmm

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: jldcol
During a cold startup your filter goes into bypass. How much of the trapped stuff would you say get flushed back into the general oil sump? Is the flow velocity through the filter high enough to imbed these particles into the media so they won't easily come back out?
This is a good reason, if filters are indeed needed, to run filters that have the bypass valve in the threaded end. Dome end bypass lets the bypassing oil run along the filtration media surface on it way past.

 

[greenaccord02]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: jldcol
During a cold startup your filter goes into bypass. How much of the trapped stuff would you say get flushed back into the general oil sump? Is the flow velocity through the filter high enough to imbed these particles into the media so they won't easily come back out?
This is a good reason, if filters are indeed needed, to run filters that have the bypass valve in the threaded end. Dome end bypass lets the bypassing oil run along the filtration media surface on it way past.


Good call, Paul. I hadn't thought about that. I'd imagine with the kind of flow rate that passes through a filter a fair bit of trash might be knocked loose.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: jldcol
High spector, op here again. Glad to post a subject that has caused a fair amount of discussion. Seems you read my mind, after breakin that oil filter is catching little if anything. Air filter is much more crucial than oil filter. Oil filters seem almost a designed in weakness. They can rupture and or just leak quickly dumping oil, and quickly killing engines.I would less adverse them provided they were much better build, particullary the gasket material/design. I submit they are changed to often anyway reducing the overall filtration. A used filter filters better than a new one and should be used as long as flow is adequate. Flow will go down as filtration improves, another of those trade off dilemas. Off road racers especially vets use only used air filters least engines quickly grunge up.


How many filters have you ever had fail?

I've blown one off when pressure hit 120+psi. I consider it the fuse in the system before more serious things happened. That's it, and it was due to a stuck pump bypass.

Who cares that you can't see a lot of [censored] in the media after it's cut apart. Ever seen what just a couple pieces of dirt .002" big do to main and rod bearings?

And again, you don't know that filters always go into bypass when cold. According to Gary's tests, it would be a rare occurance.

 

[jldcol]

Would the typical quality paper oil filter catch those .002 inchers? Bypass valves of diaphram type may have seapage/leakage around edges even if not in full bypass mode. My point on vulnerability of oil filters is in terms of ease of physical damgage, ease of improper install, and how quickly all your oil can get dumped. Most people let's face it may well not notice anything amiss until to late. If you were to say use a solid synthetic media, with no bypass valve, (because they really never do so right?! why even have it then). This filter could be mounted up high if possible and even almost pernament in duration if well enough built.Even if every filter I used or even saw failed little real info there, sample size and other protocals not sufficent to glean anything.I did not mention the lack of seeing things in used filter media, but agree if a lot of stuff present you have some trouble there. It is a guess but since oil is thickest when cold that's when oil pressure is likely the highest to allow for differential to engage bypass.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: ewetho
If you look back BobIsTheOilGuy did run and test a car on different filter and NO filter. By UOA was not too important.

The VW 1600 (1585) can easily go 100,000 miles with a doghouse oil cooler no oil filter. Older style stuff if kept on top of (adjust valves and torque heads) will too.


IIRC, when I first discovered BITOG, it was Bob who ran his Miata without an oil filter and after doing a UOA found little differences from some previous results. If I'am mistaken about it being Bob himself then I deeply appologize and mean no disrespect. Other comments that come to mind from sources that I can't remember say that, air filtration is more important than oil filtration. But, that's not to say that oil filtration is not needed. I recomend using oil filters.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, while I do remember the test ..I don't recall the duration. There's a reason why I don't recommend top tier filters for shorter OCI's unless the filter is going to be used more than once.

Particles accumulate in the oil. Simple enough. Most filters just catch true wear aggravating chunks (about 30-40um). So many particles of each size category are going to be in the mix in particle production. They can come from lots of sources. Natural degradation of some resident body ..true wear ..secondary abrasive wear ..insolubles ..etc..etc.

Let me see if this flushes in everyone's head. A 3000 mile interval on a car that does 15,000 miles/year is not going to have any substantial added particles from combustion ..nor from the inherent warm up wear. At that annual rate, the sump is being changed WAY too often to allow accumulation of anything of merit.

About the only thing that one would worry about is some random large chunk knocking around for some variable amount of time creating a few more smaller sized particles until the sump was swapped out.

Now do the same thing with a 3000 mile every 6 month sump with no filter and see the difference in insolubles and (the misnomer'd) "start up wear".

 

[Beachboy]

My dad bought a 1952 Ford pickup brand new, and it had the bypass type oil filter which filtered a small sidestream. Dad never believed in spending money for vehicle maintenance, and he said he never changed that orginal oil filter. On top of that, he'd use the drained oil out of the family car to replenish the pickup. That pickup was still running fine on the original engine when we sold it in 1990 after his death.

My first car in high school was a 1959 imported Ford with a 1.7 liter four cylinder engine. I looked for months for the oil filter on that thing, and I never could find it. Come to find out, it was built without one, as oil filters weren't commonly used in Europe. The sump only held two quarts, so I just changed the oil every couple of months. I only drove it for two years, but I never had any lubrication based problems. I also owned a 1942 Willys MB Jeep. No oil filter on that sucker, either.

Growing up on a farm, none of our farm equipment (tractors, combines, etc) ever came equipped with filters and I can guarantee that the oil was only topped off, never changed. Its obvious the old cast iron engines with their generous tolerances endured a lot more abuse than today's engines.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, while I do remember the test ..I don't recall the duration. There's a reason why I don't recommend top tier filters for shorter OCI's unless the filter is going to be used more than once.





I beleive the test duration was about 4,000+ miles.

 

[Cleft_Asunder]

Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Changing out a $5 filter every 5-8k miles on a $20-30k+ vehicle seems like a no-brainer in the overall cost of operation, even if the engine -could- last a long time without one.



Yeah that's how they want you to think. Under the same logic, I could say that replacing my oil every 3k (dino) or 5k (full syn) is a no-brain for a 20-30k vehicle, yet I know that dino runs 5k easily, and synthetic can go from 8-12k. So it may give you peace of mind, but I am 100% confident changing my oil every 5-12k depending on what oil I'm running.

As for oil filters, I question them. I'm not saying I wouldn't run one, but what I'm wondering is how often they really need to be changed. If it turns out that filters are of little use past the engine break-in point, then I will seldom replace mine, with peace of mind.

 

[Cleft_Asunder]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Spector
Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.

I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.

NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!

is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.

NO One knows! So we use it!
If filters weren't necessary would you think the auto manufactures would install them?


Lol. Yeah that's the argument.

 

[bonnie john]

i was pleased that an oil filter was fitted to my '92 fatboy

i had to replace a collapsed cam follower, the roller had broken up

my initial diagnosis was made by cutting open the oil filter with a hammer and chisel

when the pleats were examined, they were full of metal shards from the busted rollers



Originally Posted By: Cleft_Asunder
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Spector
Sorry guys, I disagree, they are pretty much useless appendages on todays engines with todays oils. They capture basically nothing in a well operating/maintained engine. The air filter is the king in terms of what is needed for filtration.

I have only gone two 12,000 miles tests with no filter change and one at the half way point and it made no difference in the UOA. cutting them open revealed nothing as well.

NO ONE has ever done a test to see how long todays engines will go without an oil filter but I would bet at least 200,000 miles. Basically we use them because we have have to and because we have this belief (like the 3000 mile OCI) that this is what worked in the past and we should continue doing it. A safety net to let us sleep at night!

is it the difference (filter vs no filter) between 200,000 miles and 300,000 miles (in which case who cares 99% of the time) or is it the difference between 100,000 miles and 200,000 miles.

NO One knows! So we use it!
If filters weren't necessary would you think the auto manufactures would install them?


Lol. Yeah that's the argument.

 

[widman]

Without a filter, where would all this crud be?

 

[Drew2000]

Originally Posted By: Cleft_Asunder
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Changing out a $5 filter every 5-8k miles on a $20-30k+ vehicle seems like a no-brainer in the overall cost of operation, even if the engine -could- last a long time without one.



Yeah that's how they want you to think. Under the same logic, I could say that replacing my oil every 3k (dino) or 5k (full syn) is a no-brain for a 20-30k vehicle, yet I know that dino runs 5k easily, and synthetic can go from 8-12k. So it may give you peace of mind, but I am 100% confident changing my oil every 5-12k depending on what oil I'm running.

As for oil filters, I question them. I'm not saying I wouldn't run one, but what I'm wondering is how often they really need to be changed. If it turns out that filters are of little use past the engine break-in point, then I will seldom replace mine, with peace of mind.


If you have a vehicle under powertrain warranty (with many in the 60k+ mile range), you really don't have a choice.

Good luck with any covered engine/oil related repairs if you can't prove that the required maintenance was done at the manufacturer's interval.

 

[rangerfan24]

This is also old. No one has addressed the fact that some cars don't have fuel fuel filters. Junk could get in through the gas tank. And the filter is there as assurance, If one good size POS were to break loose from somehthing, I'd rather have my 2 dollar oil filter catch it than have it grind my engine into scrap metal. My 2 cents