May be a little off topic but do you believe 'run it hard' to break-in an engine? What that theory mention is quit reasonable but it still sounds pretty crazy to me. Also the theory tell us to use mineral oil to do the break-in so is that all synthetic factory-filled cars like mercedes or porsche have done the break-in process in factory?
Do you believe 'run it hard' to break-in an engine?
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IMHO, that is some serious baloney. I think running an engine hard is going to shorten its life. To me, a new engine is like your first born, you take extra percautions and you start off slow. You want components to seat good at first, like the valves. Maybe I feel that way because I ain't rich and want to get the most out of my hard earned money. There are some here that believe also in the Italian Tuneup.
[ April 30, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Schmoe ]
[ April 30, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Schmoe ]
Yes, I do believe in running the engine hard ("hard" meaning not babying it) during break-in. The main issue here is establishing a good ring/cylinder seal. If the engine is babied during the first miles, you'll establish a "glaze" over the cylinder wall and an ideal ring/cylinder seal will never be established.
No, IMHO, you don't have to run a mineral oil during break-in.
No, IMHO, you don't have to run a mineral oil during break-in.
To break in a new engine, head for the hills. It is hard to put a proper load on the rings driving on the flat.
Dave
Dave
I lean towards the hard (but controlled) engine break-in. It requires isolated roads and a FULLY warmed-up engine. Strongly accelerate up to 4,000 rpm, suddenly lift off the accelerator, and then let "engine braking" slow down the vehicle to 2,000 rpm. Repeat for 6-12 cycles. Drive gently for 5-10 minutes at 30-40 mph to cool off the engine.
I personally wouldn't risk 5,000 rpm in most new vehicles. I would NEVER risk punching it all the way to the redline. Your new engine/transmission MIGHT survive this very severe stress test. It might not. Do you feel lucky?
Any automotive engineers or engine builders out there? We'd love to hear your opinions.
[ April 30, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Bruce T ]
I personally wouldn't risk 5,000 rpm in most new vehicles. I would NEVER risk punching it all the way to the redline. Your new engine/transmission MIGHT survive this very severe stress test. It might not. Do you feel lucky?
Any automotive engineers or engine builders out there? We'd love to hear your opinions.
[ April 30, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Bruce T ]
Look at the running in procedure on the European Redline Oil site's FAQs. Says to use cheapo mineral oil. Check it out:
http://www.redlineoil.co.uk/first.htm
There was a post a month or so ago where a web site was linked that talked about hard driving run ins to force the rings to seat. The theory (or hypothesis) was that the higher pressure from a lead foot would help force the rings out of the grove to wear them in better.
http://www.redlineoil.co.uk/first.htm
There was a post a month or so ago where a web site was linked that talked about hard driving run ins to force the rings to seat. The theory (or hypothesis) was that the higher pressure from a lead foot would help force the rings out of the grove to wear them in better.
Ever been to Italy and seen how Italians drive? 'Nuff said about "Italian break-in". Driving in hilly country at moderate speeds is an excellent way to seat the rings since you're naturally on and off the throttle. The reason for varying speeds is to allow both positive (power) and negative (vacuum) loading of the rings - necessary for full seating. For those who subscribe to the "Italian break-in" procedure (flat-out, let 'er rip 'till she shrieks in pain), go for it. (You're probably the same type who don't bother with foreplay.) You'll still likely hold it together through your lease term at which point the early damage leading to premature mechanical problems will be the next sucker's problem. (serves 'im right for buying a previously leased car...)
[ April 30, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
[ April 30, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
On a lease, it depends on what you buy. I used to dog my Dad for years because he did exactly that. But one day I stopped and thought about it, he hardly ever had problems. Dad always bought the high end loaded models, like Lincoln Towncars and Cadillacs. His response was...just who in the #ell leases these high end models? Older and richer folks who don't go around driving like Banshees. Made sense to me, but I won't buy them.
I wonder how people can claim/justify running car hard during brake in period then hundreds, maybe even thousands of engineers employed at dozens of automotive companies claim not to do so.
Every manual that I know of clearly says that during brake in period of first 300-2000 miles (depending on make/model) you should not run car hard, avoid rapid accelerations/stops, not exceed certain speeds, and use only specified gears at indicated speeds.
This has always been true for many many years. Lately some indicate that special brake in is not required although above stated recommendations should be observed.
Running car hard during brake in is only reduces service life of components. This is not only my opinion, but opinion of qualified and experienced engineers who build cars and surely have performed number of tests. If you don't trust them, you probably should not be driving a car. How can you trust them in this case with brakes? Do you also believe that they lie to you then they say if you press on a brake pedal car will slow down?
Regards,
Every manual that I know of clearly says that during brake in period of first 300-2000 miles (depending on make/model) you should not run car hard, avoid rapid accelerations/stops, not exceed certain speeds, and use only specified gears at indicated speeds.
This has always been true for many many years. Lately some indicate that special brake in is not required although above stated recommendations should be observed.
Running car hard during brake in is only reduces service life of components. This is not only my opinion, but opinion of qualified and experienced engineers who build cars and surely have performed number of tests. If you don't trust them, you probably should not be driving a car. How can you trust them in this case with brakes? Do you also believe that they lie to you then they say if you press on a brake pedal car will slow down?
Regards,
You are making the mistake of assuming that automotive engineers believe in and follow the directions in the owners manual.
One of the reasons the instructions are the way they are is that it's a low risk approach to beaking in engines for people that don't understand engines and won't follow directions.
The hard break in procedures don't just say "go beat the snot out of your engine". They are more elaborate than the instructions in the owners manual.
Powertrain engineers and manufacturers have been using fast breakins for decades on their own engines and the engines that they are going to run tests on.
Patman
Staff member
When I took delivery of my 98 LS1 Firebird Formula in 1998, I drove the **** out of it from day one. With under 50 miles on the clock I had it up to 135mph, going to the redline in the first four gears. In the first week with the car I must've gone full throttle at least 100 times. After one week I had 700 miles on it and took it to the dragstrip for the first time, and made 16 passes that day. I believe that break in period is the reason that engine never burned any oil. Unlike a lot of LS1s, this one used virtually no oil at all between changes.
Titanium_Alloy, My 2001 DOdge Dakota's owners manual recomended doing some hard acceleration runs to help break in the engine!
Mo-Tune USA has given the best reasoning behind their theorys. The owners manuals never offered any reasoning at all.
A lot has changed in engine machineing at the OEM level. The surface finish's are much better, the tolerance stacking has been reduced, the materials have improved, you have coated pistons and rings now, chrome plated valves are the norm now, tapered rings etc.... From the the model T up through the early late 1980's early 1990's break in was actualy finishing the engines machineing. This is not the case today.
WHile I would not recomend WOT or Redline runs you can come darn close. I drove my Camry hard the first 58 miles home from the dealer. I would get up to about 15 MPH and then go 3/4 throttle up to about 4000 RPM in 2nd and 3rd gear in the city then engine break then re-accelrate. Once I hit hit highway I drove it up to 5000 rpm before shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 4th gear. I did some engine breaking in 4th at hwy speeds a couple of time before useing over drive. Once I hit back roads I aun it hard for a mile or two at at a time then engine breaking down to 20 mph and start all over again.
I did this two or three times in a row then I drove normal for a few minutes to let everything cool off before repeating.
I never did any hard runs from a dead stop and never went past 5000 RPM or 3/4 throttle the first 58 miles. The cars redline does not even start until 7500RPM's. Once I had 58 miles on it I changed the oil. I then drove another 200 miles drive it a more gentle like I would normaly drive a car for break in. I drained the oil again and put another 600 miles on it. I then drained the oil again and drove it to 3000 miles. I then changed the oil to Redline 5W40 and changed the filter.
Dureing break in I used Chevron Supreme 10W30 because it is cheap and has done well in many UOA's. I was changeing to frequently to run an expensive oil.
This is the first time I have used this type of break in specificly. I have by dafualt used this type of break in procedure in the past. I used to do alot of engine work when I was younger. Most of it was mild performance rebuilds for customer that wanted to beef up their engines a bit more then stock but not so radical that it was not streetable. After the initial 20 minute run in I would fine tune the timeing, air fuel mixture etc. I would turn off the engine and change the oil and filter. I would always test drive the car personely before I would deliver it to the customer. I would take it through town a bit and then I would hit the autobahn. I would return by secondary roads. I would instruct the customer to return in 1000Km for an oil change and to let me check the plugs, compression and vacumm. So by defualt I was kind of following this type of break in with out really meaning too or trying too.
P.S. My Camry has only used 1/3 of a quart of oil in the first 14,000 miles and that happened when I first switched to synthetic oil. It has not used a drop since that time.
Mo-Tune USA has given the best reasoning behind their theorys. The owners manuals never offered any reasoning at all.
A lot has changed in engine machineing at the OEM level. The surface finish's are much better, the tolerance stacking has been reduced, the materials have improved, you have coated pistons and rings now, chrome plated valves are the norm now, tapered rings etc.... From the the model T up through the early late 1980's early 1990's break in was actualy finishing the engines machineing. This is not the case today.
WHile I would not recomend WOT or Redline runs you can come darn close. I drove my Camry hard the first 58 miles home from the dealer. I would get up to about 15 MPH and then go 3/4 throttle up to about 4000 RPM in 2nd and 3rd gear in the city then engine break then re-accelrate. Once I hit hit highway I drove it up to 5000 rpm before shifting from 2nd to 3rd and 4th gear. I did some engine breaking in 4th at hwy speeds a couple of time before useing over drive. Once I hit back roads I aun it hard for a mile or two at at a time then engine breaking down to 20 mph and start all over again.
I did this two or three times in a row then I drove normal for a few minutes to let everything cool off before repeating.
I never did any hard runs from a dead stop and never went past 5000 RPM or 3/4 throttle the first 58 miles. The cars redline does not even start until 7500RPM's. Once I had 58 miles on it I changed the oil. I then drove another 200 miles drive it a more gentle like I would normaly drive a car for break in. I drained the oil again and put another 600 miles on it. I then drained the oil again and drove it to 3000 miles. I then changed the oil to Redline 5W40 and changed the filter.
Dureing break in I used Chevron Supreme 10W30 because it is cheap and has done well in many UOA's. I was changeing to frequently to run an expensive oil.
This is the first time I have used this type of break in specificly. I have by dafualt used this type of break in procedure in the past. I used to do alot of engine work when I was younger. Most of it was mild performance rebuilds for customer that wanted to beef up their engines a bit more then stock but not so radical that it was not streetable. After the initial 20 minute run in I would fine tune the timeing, air fuel mixture etc. I would turn off the engine and change the oil and filter. I would always test drive the car personely before I would deliver it to the customer. I would take it through town a bit and then I would hit the autobahn. I would return by secondary roads. I would instruct the customer to return in 1000Km for an oil change and to let me check the plugs, compression and vacumm. So by defualt I was kind of following this type of break in with out really meaning too or trying too.
P.S. My Camry has only used 1/3 of a quart of oil in the first 14,000 miles and that happened when I first switched to synthetic oil. It has not used a drop since that time.
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This "shine 'em up and oil 'em down" method is directly out of the Perfect Circle Piston Ring "Dr. of Motors" manual. It has gone out of vogue for reasons other then it all of a sudden turning into a "bad idea". Lots of stuff has changed since this technique was created. Machining precision has improved ..and CRs have come down.
I've used the "controlled beating" for every new vehicle that I've owned. You don't have to go "hog wild" with it ...just cycle the engine between a healthy load and coasting under full vacuum. You don't have to reach the redline. Just going up a decent hill in a midrange gear and coasting down the other side in the same gear will do the trick (if you have enough hills in a row- a Pennsylvania characteristic since the end of the Ice Age
).
I try and put around 10-20 miles of "cycling" on a new engine.
I've used the "controlled beating" for every new vehicle that I've owned. You don't have to go "hog wild" with it ...just cycle the engine between a healthy load and coasting under full vacuum. You don't have to reach the redline. Just going up a decent hill in a midrange gear and coasting down the other side in the same gear will do the trick (if you have enough hills in a row- a Pennsylvania characteristic since the end of the Ice Age
I try and put around 10-20 miles of "cycling" on a new engine.
Italian Tuneup?
I believe in drive it how you normally do. If you drive like a granny, drive like a granny. If you drive hard, drive hard. That is what the dealer told my parents who bought a '04 Yukon. Also said to adjust the speeds on the highway to break it in. The engine will adjust to your driving style.
I do. Read this. On my trip home from the dealer, I drove my C-T hard, on and then off throttle, for about 25 miles.
I then drained the factory-filled M1 0W-40 at 33 miles and filled with Mobil Drive-Clean. Took a nite-time hiway trip where I drove it hard, accelerating full throttle* in 4th or 5th gear from about 1500 to 4- to 5-thousand RPM, then off the throttle all the way back to around 1500RPM, then repeated for a couple hours. The next day I drained that oil at about 200 miles and refilled with more DD**. Drained that at c. 2000 miles and filled with M1 0W-40 that I've since replaced with Red Line 5W-40.
It consumed about a half-quart in its first 10,000-mile service interval and none in the next 2,000 (both on M1 0W-40), and has consumed no RL 5W-40 in about 2,000 miles.
Someone told me that Porsche uses a special 'break-in' version of M1 0W-40 for factory filling, but I do not believe that. (I understand some manufacturers do use special oil that should NOT be drained early.)
Porsche does run every engine they build on special test dynos to be sure everthing works properly, but the engines are not fully 'broken-in' in the few minutes of running.
*--but not into the automatic-transmission-downshift throttle detent, so that the converter stayed locked.
**--dead-dino, = petroleum-based.
I then drained the factory-filled M1 0W-40 at 33 miles and filled with Mobil Drive-Clean. Took a nite-time hiway trip where I drove it hard, accelerating full throttle* in 4th or 5th gear from about 1500 to 4- to 5-thousand RPM, then off the throttle all the way back to around 1500RPM, then repeated for a couple hours. The next day I drained that oil at about 200 miles and refilled with more DD**. Drained that at c. 2000 miles and filled with M1 0W-40 that I've since replaced with Red Line 5W-40.
It consumed about a half-quart in its first 10,000-mile service interval and none in the next 2,000 (both on M1 0W-40), and has consumed no RL 5W-40 in about 2,000 miles.
Someone told me that Porsche uses a special 'break-in' version of M1 0W-40 for factory filling, but I do not believe that. (I understand some manufacturers do use special oil that should NOT be drained early.)
Porsche does run every engine they build on special test dynos to be sure everthing works properly, but the engines are not fully 'broken-in' in the few minutes of running.
*--but not into the automatic-transmission-downshift throttle detent, so that the converter stayed locked.
**--dead-dino, = petroleum-based.
I concur with JohnBrowning regarding Chrysler's manual recommendation:
"At cruising speed, brief full throttle acceleration will aid engine brake in". It also recommends not to do full throttle acceleration from a stop or low speeds.
This appears in my 8 cyl. Dodge truck as well as our 4 banger mini van.
"At cruising speed, brief full throttle acceleration will aid engine brake in". It also recommends not to do full throttle acceleration from a stop or low speeds.
This appears in my 8 cyl. Dodge truck as well as our 4 banger mini van.
every engine i get i break in HARD.
case in point, when i rebuilt my porsche motor, i started the engine up, check oil pressure , adjusted the timing, synched the carbs, and took it out for wide open throttle bang off the redline hard running. the engine runs great.
same thing with my dirtbike, i start the new motor up, adjust the carb and check the engine over while it warms up, then run the snot out of it.
case in point, when i rebuilt my porsche motor, i started the engine up, check oil pressure , adjusted the timing, synched the carbs, and took it out for wide open throttle bang off the redline hard running. the engine runs great.
same thing with my dirtbike, i start the new motor up, adjust the carb and check the engine over while it warms up, then run the snot out of it.
I agree. Full throttle acceleration from 1st or 2nd gear is considered bad for engine break-in. It puts too much strain on the engine/transmission components. They usually recommend using 3rd or 4th gear.
[ May 01, 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Bruce T ]
[ May 01, 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Bruce T ]
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