Do GM dealers intake gasket fixes work?
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Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
i have done the gaskets on mine twice, and still leaks...
Out of curiosity, what brand of gaskets did you use as a replacement?
ya something wasn't done right or right gasket wasn't used,i've done many of these repairs now on the 31,34 and vortec 5700's and no returns as of yet,attention to detail and the right parts is key.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
i have done the gaskets on mine twice, and still leaks...
Out of curiosity, what brand of gaskets did you use as a replacement?
ya something wasn't done right or right gasket wasn't used,i've done many of these repairs now on the 31,34 and vortec 5700's and no returns as of yet,attention to detail and the right parts is key.
Propflux01
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I used fel pro gaskets bought at autozone. Its not that difficult to do the actual work, just alot of [censored] to remove to get down to it. However, It leaks from the same spot, the rear head, right hand side (facing motor)inner area. I can't tell if the manifold is cracked or what, but it is an external leak only, it is NOT going into the engine at all.
the "standard" leak I think is into the engine
I have replaced the LIM gaskets on my 1999 Olds GLS. I used Dorman because it came with the bolts and it was in stock at the local NAPA store.
Let me make some general points:
1. Everything about the original gasket was wrong, not just the plastic base. The gasket also failed because the area that actually formed the seal was too small and crushed when the manifold was tightened.
The manifold can also leak because there is an area about 3" below the intake that is only sealed with RTV silicone.
This picture http://info.rockauto.com/ROL/DetailRemote.html?MS4504.jpg shows the revised design. The black area was changed to rubber coated soft metal, the red area forms the seal and was made larger, and metal tabs were added at the bolt holes.
2. Why are bad engineers' choices made ?
"Golden-boy" syndrome. Watch a documentary about why building collapse or why airplanes fall apart in the sky.
Lots of bad engineering choices are made because the higher manager will follow whatever the "golden boy" says. An experienced engineer will then say "that ain't gonna work".
The experienced engineer will be chastised for not being a "team player", and then everyone else will just go along with the "golden boy" .
After knowing that they made the wrong choice, the manager will defend his choice to protect himself. The company then does a cost analysis, and determines that it is cheaper to fix 1000x failures then to use 10000x corrected parts.
Let me make some general points:
1. Everything about the original gasket was wrong, not just the plastic base. The gasket also failed because the area that actually formed the seal was too small and crushed when the manifold was tightened.
The manifold can also leak because there is an area about 3" below the intake that is only sealed with RTV silicone.
This picture http://info.rockauto.com/ROL/DetailRemote.html?MS4504.jpg shows the revised design. The black area was changed to rubber coated soft metal, the red area forms the seal and was made larger, and metal tabs were added at the bolt holes.
2. Why are bad engineers' choices made ?
"Golden-boy" syndrome. Watch a documentary about why building collapse or why airplanes fall apart in the sky.
Lots of bad engineering choices are made because the higher manager will follow whatever the "golden boy" says. An experienced engineer will then say "that ain't gonna work".
The experienced engineer will be chastised for not being a "team player", and then everyone else will just go along with the "golden boy" .
After knowing that they made the wrong choice, the manager will defend his choice to protect himself. The company then does a cost analysis, and determines that it is cheaper to fix 1000x failures then to use 10000x corrected parts.
The "new-style" 3100/3400 lower intake gaskets from GM are still plastic-framed, but they've added some metal inserts that prevent excessive crush, and I THINK they also changed the seal bead material. They also revised the bolt torque spec and have come out with some new pre-locktited bolts that they'll happily sell you for $4 PER BOLT (or you can just clean up your old bolts and squirt a little locktite on them). IMO, it's a marginal improvement over the original design, but doesn't address the main problem: The gaskets are still PLASTIC. Don't know what kind of rocket scientists they have running that operation... but they've apparently overlooked a problem that your average high-school kid could've pointed out.
Or perhaps they didn't 'overlook' it. Those gaskets often (but certainly not 'always') hold together for roughly 100k miles... maybe even a little more. Then they promptly fall apart and quite possibly ruin the engine if the problem isn't caught in time. It's a pretty good design if planned obsolescence is the goal- i.e. if they want to sell you another car/engine after 120k miles.
I'll agree with others here that the metal/rubber FelPro "Problem-Saver" gaskets are the preferred (and permanent) fix for this inherent problem. I've installed several sets with no problems whatsoever... whereas I've had the previous original plastic design leak again 30-40k after replacement.
Or perhaps they didn't 'overlook' it. Those gaskets often (but certainly not 'always') hold together for roughly 100k miles... maybe even a little more. Then they promptly fall apart and quite possibly ruin the engine if the problem isn't caught in time. It's a pretty good design if planned obsolescence is the goal- i.e. if they want to sell you another car/engine after 120k miles.
I'll agree with others here that the metal/rubber FelPro "Problem-Saver" gaskets are the preferred (and permanent) fix for this inherent problem. I've installed several sets with no problems whatsoever... whereas I've had the previous original plastic design leak again 30-40k after replacement.
Quote:
2. Why are bad engineers' choices made ?
"Golden-boy" syndrome. Watch a documentary about why building collapse or why airplanes fall apart in the sky.
Lots of bad engineering choices are made because the higher manager will follow whatever the "golden boy" says. An experienced engineer will then say "that ain't gonna work".
The experienced engineer will be chastised for not being a "team player", and then everyone else will just go along with the "golden boy" .
After knowing that they made the wrong choice, the manager will defend his choice to protect himself. The company then does a cost analysis, and determines that it is cheaper to fix 1000x failures then to use 10000x corrected parts.
I just took a class called Engineering Ethics... which included a dozen or so case studies in spectacular and costly engineering blunders. And your explanation rings true with several of these cases- particularly the Challenger Space Shuttle explosion and the exploding Ford Pintos.
2. Why are bad engineers' choices made ?
"Golden-boy" syndrome. Watch a documentary about why building collapse or why airplanes fall apart in the sky.
Lots of bad engineering choices are made because the higher manager will follow whatever the "golden boy" says. An experienced engineer will then say "that ain't gonna work".
The experienced engineer will be chastised for not being a "team player", and then everyone else will just go along with the "golden boy" .
After knowing that they made the wrong choice, the manager will defend his choice to protect himself. The company then does a cost analysis, and determines that it is cheaper to fix 1000x failures then to use 10000x corrected parts.
I just took a class called Engineering Ethics... which included a dozen or so case studies in spectacular and costly engineering blunders. And your explanation rings true with several of these cases- particularly the Challenger Space Shuttle explosion and the exploding Ford Pintos.
I believe GM's LS series engines were designed by very competent engineers. I also believe their remaining engines are designed by accountants.
Another failure is most people overtorque the intake bolts when using the plastic gaskets.The nearest Carquest parts store did get this all the time,people doing the job all over again and sell the Dorman kit which is cheaper than the Fel Pro kit.There is a lawsuit pending,Fel Pro sueing Dordman because they say Dorman copied the design of the upgraded intake gaskets.GM neesd to do away from plastic intake gaskets!The 4.8s,5.3s and 6.0s also have intake gasket problems.The intake gaskets on these engines blow out,sucking in air and causes misses running realy bad.
Originally Posted By: wafrederick1
GM neesd to do away from plastic intake gaskets!The 4.8s,5.3s and 6.0s also have intake gasket problems.The intake gaskets on these engines blow out,sucking in air and causes misses running realy bad.
No, GM needs to do away with Dexcool because there were no problems with those gaskets until they switched to Dexcool. Ask any mechanic. GM didn't change those gaskets when they changed to Dexcool, and that's the problem, they didn't anticipate the gasket failing because of Dexcool. The gaskets worked fine until they used Dexcool. You need to quit blaming the gaskets and blame the 2EHA in Dexcool that is a known plasticizer (dissolves plastic) Those gaskets also don't fail using green or G-05 antifreeze. Why doesn't anyone understand that GM used those type of gaskets since the 1980's? and they didn't start giving problems until the late 90's at the same time GM started using Dexcool?
GM neesd to do away from plastic intake gaskets!The 4.8s,5.3s and 6.0s also have intake gasket problems.The intake gaskets on these engines blow out,sucking in air and causes misses running realy bad.
No, GM needs to do away with Dexcool because there were no problems with those gaskets until they switched to Dexcool. Ask any mechanic. GM didn't change those gaskets when they changed to Dexcool, and that's the problem, they didn't anticipate the gasket failing because of Dexcool. The gaskets worked fine until they used Dexcool. You need to quit blaming the gaskets and blame the 2EHA in Dexcool that is a known plasticizer (dissolves plastic) Those gaskets also don't fail using green or G-05 antifreeze. Why doesn't anyone understand that GM used those type of gaskets since the 1980's? and they didn't start giving problems until the late 90's at the same time GM started using Dexcool?
Every regular around here knows that there's no bigger Dexcool-hater than myself- but I gotta disagree with you, ZGrider. Dexcool IS a proven factor in these gasket failures, but I don't think it's the sole cause. It's a simple fact that plastic degrades with time, heat, and exposure to assorted automotive fluids. No getting around it. Add a plasticizer like 2eha, and you've got a synergy of failure (I coined that phrase a couple weeks ago and I'm kinda proud of it).
The 3100/3400 engines didn't switch to the plastic gaskets until 1994. Not sure exactly when the 4.3, 3.8, 5.7, ect. made the switch, but I suspect it was around the same time. Dexcool was introduced a couple years later. Intake gasket failures may be more common 1996 and later (I've got no way to prove it, though: pure speculation), but I've seen plenty of '94 and '95 model gaskets fail.
Of course, it doesn't help that lots of mid-90's GMs ended up being refilled with Dexcool even if that isn't what they came with originally. My own '94 Corsica still has the remains of a nasty case of Dex-sludge after some well-meaning individual 'upgraded' the coolant.
The 3100/3400 engines didn't switch to the plastic gaskets until 1994. Not sure exactly when the 4.3, 3.8, 5.7, ect. made the switch, but I suspect it was around the same time. Dexcool was introduced a couple years later. Intake gasket failures may be more common 1996 and later (I've got no way to prove it, though: pure speculation), but I've seen plenty of '94 and '95 model gaskets fail.
Of course, it doesn't help that lots of mid-90's GMs ended up being refilled with Dexcool even if that isn't what they came with originally. My own '94 Corsica still has the remains of a nasty case of Dex-sludge after some well-meaning individual 'upgraded' the coolant.
onion:
Then what type of IM gaskets did they use prior to 1994? I've pulled apart plenty of 3.8 and 3.1 engines and I never saw any IM gasket other than the current type. So when Felpro claims they have a updated metal design, is it just a resurrected design? Just for grins, the IM gaskets are really a nylon-fiber composite construction.
Then what type of IM gaskets did they use prior to 1994? I've pulled apart plenty of 3.8 and 3.1 engines and I never saw any IM gasket other than the current type. So when Felpro claims they have a updated metal design, is it just a resurrected design? Just for grins, the IM gaskets are really a nylon-fiber composite construction.
Oh yeah, why doesn't GM just switch back to the previous IM gaskets? Surely, even GM engineers are not that dense.
The discussions about DEX-Cool with 2-EHA that is a known "plasticizer" and eats away intake gaskets have been very confusing to me.
The car has a plastic radiator cap, plastic reservoir tank, plastic parts on the radiator, plastic parts on the heater core, and dex-cool comes in a plastic jug, but none of these are leaking due to dex-cool.
Why is the plastic container of dex-cool not leaking ?
The reason is because Dex-cool 2-EHA is only a "plasticizer" to a specific type of plastic that was used on gaskets.
This web site gives detailed explanation:
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part1-draft.htm
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part2.php
( I also added this as a new topic)
The car has a plastic radiator cap, plastic reservoir tank, plastic parts on the radiator, plastic parts on the heater core, and dex-cool comes in a plastic jug, but none of these are leaking due to dex-cool.
Why is the plastic container of dex-cool not leaking ?
The reason is because Dex-cool 2-EHA is only a "plasticizer" to a specific type of plastic that was used on gaskets.
This web site gives detailed explanation:
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part1-draft.htm
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool2007Part2.php
( I also added this as a new topic)
hey carwreck when I look up on the stant web site it gives a slightly different stant number for the rad cap , like 231 not 230 is there a better explanation somewhere on the rad cap issue?
question relates to 98 buick lesabre
question relates to 98 buick lesabre
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And where do you get small amounts of antifreeze to top up the dexcool? Can you buy less than a whole gallon anywhere? my moms car had the buick deaker full blown repair so I ASSUME they put in dexcool- does the prestone extended antifreeze that they say is for all makes- - can you add that to dexcool?
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My other car is a nissan maxima and the maxima dealer says they use factory antifreeze for all in warranty work then use generic green (this was 4 years ago) for customer paid work
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My other car is a nissan maxima and the maxima dealer says they use factory antifreeze for all in warranty work then use generic green (this was 4 years ago) for customer paid work
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Originally Posted By: onion
They also revised the bolt torque spec and have come out with some new pre-locktited bolts that they'll happily sell you for $4 PER BOLT (or you can just clean up your old bolts and squirt a little locktite on them).
The torque values that came with my Fel-Pro problem solver kit had the same torque values as my '94 factory service manual. What torque value are you using?
What "flavor" Loctite?
They also revised the bolt torque spec and have come out with some new pre-locktited bolts that they'll happily sell you for $4 PER BOLT (or you can just clean up your old bolts and squirt a little locktite on them).
The torque values that came with my Fel-Pro problem solver kit had the same torque values as my '94 factory service manual. What torque value are you using?
What "flavor" Loctite?
Originally Posted By: onion
Intake gasket failures may be more common 1996 and later... but I've seen plenty of '94 and '95 model gaskets fail.
I agree, the problems seem to coincide with the change from the MPFI to the SFI engines; perhaps there is some difference in the castings that distorts the gaskets excessively.
Intake gasket failures may be more common 1996 and later... but I've seen plenty of '94 and '95 model gaskets fail.
I agree, the problems seem to coincide with the change from the MPFI to the SFI engines; perhaps there is some difference in the castings that distorts the gaskets excessively.
Originally Posted By: George7941
" Thanks Pres. Clinton for NAFTA!!!!! "
I believe that Canada, and the States, are fully capable of competing with the rest of the world, because of our superior productivity and skills and infrastructure.
The US and Canadian workers pose no problem to each other. These labor markets have already equalized in the past.
The problem occurs when you introduce a third world economy like Mexico into this labor supply.
From economics, disparate labor markets producing to a single market will equalize in the long run.
For the US and Canadian worker, this means a greatly reduced wage. For the Mexican worker, it means an improved wage.
In the short run, maybe a generation or two, jobs relocate to the lesser labor market. That's what we are seeing right now.
When the markets finally stabilize, it will not be at a "living wage" for workers in the US and Canada. The US and Canadian standard of living that we currently enjoy will necessarily be reduced.
40 years ago, US and Canadian workers competed with the world with with machinery and advanced technology. Today, multinational corporations are busily exporting our coveted technology to emerging labor markets like China and Mexico. We no longer possess the advantages we had in the 1960's.
The Japanese are protectionists. It seems to be working just fine for them.
My apologies to the OP for being so far off-topic.
" Thanks Pres. Clinton for NAFTA!!!!! "
I believe that Canada, and the States, are fully capable of competing with the rest of the world, because of our superior productivity and skills and infrastructure.
The US and Canadian workers pose no problem to each other. These labor markets have already equalized in the past.
The problem occurs when you introduce a third world economy like Mexico into this labor supply.
From economics, disparate labor markets producing to a single market will equalize in the long run.
For the US and Canadian worker, this means a greatly reduced wage. For the Mexican worker, it means an improved wage.
In the short run, maybe a generation or two, jobs relocate to the lesser labor market. That's what we are seeing right now.
When the markets finally stabilize, it will not be at a "living wage" for workers in the US and Canada. The US and Canadian standard of living that we currently enjoy will necessarily be reduced.
40 years ago, US and Canadian workers competed with the world with with machinery and advanced technology. Today, multinational corporations are busily exporting our coveted technology to emerging labor markets like China and Mexico. We no longer possess the advantages we had in the 1960's.
The Japanese are protectionists. It seems to be working just fine for them.
My apologies to the OP for being so far off-topic.
1./ So what type of antifreeze should you put in after changing the IM gaskets to the new upgraded ones? How about the new Prestone Universal a/f which is 'compatible with either the old style green or the new Long Life a/f' 2./ Does LIM stand for Lower Intake Manifold? I know the 3100/ 3.1 L has two IM's. an upper and lower IM. 3./ Is there a great write up of the IM gasket change out for th e3.1L maybe with photo's? I have the Haynes manual , but it leaves out a lot of steps and tries to cover too many models in one step by step.
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