Do Ecore filters flow better?

[ZZman]

There seems to be much more open space in the center tube area than a regular filter with a steel core with holes drilled in it.

Do you think they could flow oil much better or would the media be the thing that is holding back the flow the most?

 

[ZZman]

I guess this answers it: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/11/03/270769.html

 

[sw99]

Sounds like you already knew that answer...

 

[ZZman]

I still wonder however. I have never seen how fast oil can get thru media under pressure and wonder if the oil can flow fast enough thru the normal steel cores or if the ecore would really make much difference.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't think the center tube is much of a restriction point. The filter media is likelely the most restrictive part. Where the ecore has a potential advantage is the overall design would allow more media area for a given filter size. That doesn't mean more media is used or that the media is higher flowing type.

There is one tangible advantage of the nylon core they listed:
Quote:
Ecore's high strength nylon core virtually eliminates core contamination, a problem present with conventional metal cores. Minute metal particles such as burrs and fragments from the machining process are harmful to vital engine parts, particularly on the filter's clean side.


The main thing I have against ecores is that with the wide center tube hole spacing there needs to be lots of pleats. And it appears that ecores haven't always had enough pleats. I'm not crazy about the combo bypass or the failure mode of the nylon cage, but those aren't really issues in reality.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I like that the Ecore filter has less material in it, reducing manufacturing material and disposal issues (and cost). I don't care for how "open" the filter is, for if there is a media failure. ANY media can fail; it really doesn't matter the brand of filter. I would think that a steel mesh screen (similar to what K&N uses in their cotton-gauze filters) that wraps around the outer diamter of the nylon core (between the nylon core and the filter media) would go a long way to ensure that a catastrophic failure of the media would stay relatively contained. It may even help reduce the likelihood of media failure, as it would provide consistent support for the media across the entire length of the core.

I like Ecore filters, and like their design. I've not used one yet, due to my huge supply of Advance Auto Purolators for my Mopars, and my consistently price-competitive source for Denso filters for my Toyota: the dealer, can you imagine?! I think there are a few areas of potential improvement for the Ecore design, but I really do like what appears to me to be out-of-the-box thinking.

 

[SuperBusa]

Champ Labs is just trying to do a "sales pitch" on the so called advantages of the open Ecore center cage. In reality, you would probably have a hard time making an accurate PISD measurement difference in the laboratory between an Ecore center cage and a metal cage full of holes in the classic filter design in terms of its real PSID factor. If you could, it might be a few tenths of a PSID if that.

Of the total PSID across an oil filter, I'd say 95% of it is across the media and the other 5% is spit between the base inlet holes and the center tube outlet holes.

IMO, the Ecore center tube it too open which could lead to media blow-outs of the media gets flattened out over the cage in use. It needs some refinement IMO.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


Of the total PSID across an oil filter, I'd say 95% of it is across the media and the other 5% is spit between the base inlet holes and the center tube outlet holes.



Do you really have anything to base that 5% on or are you guessing?

My guess is that it would be cheaper to punch some more holes in the center tube and cut back 5% on the media, and the filter manufactures have already done it.

 

[Herz]

Here is the topic I made with the same idea.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...710#Post1714710

I was going to do the test but there seemed to be little interest. It also turned into a normal battle between Gary and Busa lol.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


Of the total PSID across an oil filter, I'd say 95% of it is across the media and the other 5% is spit between the base inlet holes and the center tube outlet holes.



Do you really have anything to base that 5% on or are you guessing?

My guess is that it would be cheaper to punch some more holes in the center tube and cut back 5% on the media, and the filter manufactures have already done it.


That's my educated guess based on the fact that the total area of all the holes in the center tube in a classic design is usually greater than or equal to the center hole area and the total area of the base inlet holes. In other words, an oil filter designer will try to ensure that all those areas are about equal and sufficient to flow maximum expected flow without adding too much PSID.

The PL14006 that was bench tested produced 5 PSID @ 12 GPM (hot oil), so it's not too hard to imagine that the majority of that 5 PISD was from the media itself. Even if 1 PSID of the 5 was from the holes, then that is only 20% of the total. In any case, the point is the PSID from the holes is a small fraction of the total PSID. If an Ecore cage cut the PSID down from 1 to 1/2 PSID, it's not going to really make much of a noticeable difference.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
IMO, the Ecore center tube it too open which could lead to media blow-outs of the media gets flattened out over the cage in use. It needs some refinement IMO.


What do you think of my idea of them using a mesh screen on the outside of the nylon cage? Seems too obvious really. It would provide good support for the filter media, and still give the same advantages of the strong nylon core.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Jason Adcock
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
IMO, the Ecore center tube it too open which could lead to media blow-outs of the media gets flattened out over the cage in use. It needs some refinement IMO.


What do you think of my idea of them using a mesh screen on the outside of the nylon cage? Seems too obvious really. It would provide good support for the filter media, and still give the same advantages of the strong nylon core.


That's what I recommended as a possible solution in my failed ecore thread. However, if there was a 100% guarantee that each filter was manufactured with tight/even and properly bonded pleats around the whole filter, that would also be a solution.

 

[labman]

It would also be possible and likely cheaper to make a perforated nylon tube.

 

[Hokiefyd]

That seems to be the only legitimate weakness of the Ecore filter. If you have media failure with a perforated core filter, there's probably little chance that it gets into the engine (but the Ecore filter allows a clear pathway). And with a perforated core filter, the chances of a media failure to begin with are probably smaller, since the media has better support.

I wouldn't have any problem with using one as it is now. But with a refinement to the design that would address the already extremely low chances of outright media failure, they'd probably have one super value in those filters.

 

[labman]

+1 In the 10 worst cars thread I discussed both the importance of trying new things, and rejecting the ones that don't work. An objective person would acknowledge that Ecore failures are quite rare. However, they have happened. Perhaps to deal with the rare problems. they do need to make a change. Such a change also needs to be made to the cartridge elements that use a similar cage, or a least in the PF 457 and other brands. I don't remember if other cartridge elements use a similar cage or not.