Lamenting between flow and efficiency

[CarDoc66]

Every oil change I’m undecided on what filter to use. Partly because there is almost too much information on filters in here, but also because we seem to focus on media efficiency more than flow.
With modern VVT engines, most have 2 stage oil pumps to reduce parasitic loss at lower rpm and provide the high flow needed to actuated cam phasers at higher RPMs.
As Purolator filters seem to be top quality, the inlet holes are very small in my application as compared to a factory filter. Also, which is better for flow, a spiral center tube or one with round holes?
The amsoil filter I just purchased doesn’t have a lot of inlet holes compared to the OE filter.
Should I be looking for a filter that has similar inlet hole area and center tube construction as well as a good micron rating? I wish flow specs were published as well as filtration efficiency.

 

[kschachn]

Every oil change I’m undecided on what filter to use. Partly because there is almost too much information on filters in here, but also because we seem to focus on media efficiency more than flow.
With modern VVT engines, most have 2 stage oil pumps to reduce parasitic loss at lower rpm and provide the high flow needed to actuated cam phasers at higher RPMs.
As Purolator filters seem to be top quality, the inlet holes are very small in my application as compared to a factory filter. Also, which is better for flow, a spiral center tube or one with round holes?
The amsoil filter I just purchased doesn’t have a lot of inlet holes compared to the OE filter.
Should I be looking for a filter that has similar inlet hole area and center tube construction as well as a good micron rating? I wish flow specs were published as well as filtration efficiency.

Flow is not a problem and neither are the holes unless their area adds up to less than the outlet. It does not.

Again flow is not a problem.

 

[DriveHard]

Please school me on oil pump displacement requirements...

I always assumed the oil pump was sized for idle speeds, and low engine speeds. I don't see oil flow requirements changing with RPM as much as the flow is going to increase with RPM. I always assumed the pump would want FULL displacement at low speeds, and lower displacement at higher speeds to reduce wasted pumping losses. Am I wrong?

 

[CarDoc66]

Please school me on oil pump displacement requirements...

I always assumed the oil pump was sized for idle speeds, and low engine speeds. I don't see oil flow requirements changing with RPM as much as the flow is going to increase with RPM. I always assumed the pump would want FULL displacement at low speeds, and lower displacement at higher speeds to reduce wasted pumping losses. Am I wrong?

Lets use a Chrysler Pentastar V6 as an example. I was a Chrysler dealer tech for many years and I have been trained on the Pentastar engine.
Two stage oil pump: about 35 psi on the low stage under 3000 rpm or so. Above 3-3500 rpm the pump will switch to high pressure and a healthy engine will see almost 95 psi. Coincidentally this is where the phaser actuation becomes a big factor and the reason for the pump going to “high pressure” stage. The chambers in the phasers are of considerable size, along with extra galleys inside the cams to feed them. More flow and pressure is needed for proper operation and sufficient lubrication of the rest of the engine.

 

[CarDoc66]

Flow is not a problem and neither are the holes unless their area adds up to less than the outlet. It does not.

Again flow is not a problem.

So what your saying is if I did the math for inlet hole area vs outlet hole area it would be comparable regardless of inlet hole size and number?

 

[Sayjac]

After reading this board for many years, not concerned about OF flow in PC use.

As for inlet holes size and number, been discussed here many times. As long as the total area all inlet holes at least equivalent to inner area engine block filter mounting stud, all good. I'll say OFs in use today easily meet or exceed that.

 

[rob1715]

compared to a factory filter.

compared to the OE filter.

Should I be looking for a filter that has similar inlet hole area and center tube construction

Why are you comparing it to the OEM filter? It's good to research and gain knowledge, but you answered your own question.

 

[wpod]

The Air filter is the filter that matters. The most important think to lament about oil filter choice is will it fail.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

The oil filter is not a bottleneck to the engine's oiling system.

 

[Job]

Measure the ID of your hollow filter thread mounting stud and compare to the inlet holes in the oil filter. It may narrow down further after the filter mount, surprisingly small, as they need the flow to build asap to engine parts. Smaller pipes = higher pressure and faster flow. We want fast oil flow in an engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Every oil change I’m undecided on what filter to use. Partly because there is almost too much information on filters in here, but also because we seem to focus on media efficiency more than flow.
With modern VVT engines, most have 2 stage oil pumps to reduce parasitic loss at lower rpm and provide the high flow needed to actuated cam phasers at higher RPMs.
As Purolator filters seem to be top quality, the inlet holes are very small in my application as compared to a factory filter. Also, which is better for flow, a spiral center tube or one with round holes?
The amsoil filter I just purchased doesn’t have a lot of inlet holes compared to the OE filter.
Should I be looking for a filter that has similar inlet hole area and center tube construction as well as a good micron rating? I wish flow specs were published as well as filtration efficiency.

An engine oiling system uses a positive displacement (PD) oil pump - it seems to be the most misunderstood component in an engine. As long as the pump is not in pressure relief, then all the oil leaving the pump must go through the oil filter and engine oiling system. An oil filer would have to be super flow restrictive to make an oil pump go into pressure relief, or you would have to rev the engine to near redline with very cold and thick oil. A typical new oil filter is about 15 times more free flowing than an engine's oiling system. People look at an oil filter and see one with 8 holes instead of 6 holes in the base plate and they automatically think the one with 6 holes is going to "choke off" oil to the engine ... it's not.

If you want to get a feeling of how much flow resistance (aka "delta-p") oil filters have, look at this flow test data.

Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

You switched your temps here, but yes exactly. It's easier to heat a fluid up then to cool it down to reach a target viscosity. I also don't like to get fluids to hot. Around 40C is where I don't like to go beyond if I can help it. Nice graphs and homework on this equivalency!

bobistheoilguy.com

For years, people had this misconception that the Purolator PureOne was "flow restrictive" ... until Purolator provided flow vs delat-p data on a mid sized PureOne filter. This is flow performance with a 5W-30 viscosity oil at normal operating oil temperatures. Also, with many of today's high efficiency oil filters they can both filter at high efficiency and flow very well - meaning there is low delta-p with flow. Also look at the efficiency data in that same test thread (link below the graph).

Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

I have this as a “watched” thread, so if you do happen to start a new one, could you put a note or link in this one to direct followers to the new thread? Thanks!! Yes, no problem I can do that.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[CarDoc66]

An engine oiling system uses a positive displacement (PD) oil pump - it seems to be the most misunderstood component in an engine. As long as the pump is not in pressure relief, then all the oil leaving the pump must go through the oil filter and engine oiling system. An oil filer would have to be super flow restrictive to make an oil pump go into pressure relief, or you would have to rev the engine to near redline with very cold and thick oil. A typical new oil filter is about 15 times more free flowing than an engine's oiling system. People look at an oil filter and see one with 8 holes instead of 6 holes in the base plate and they automatically think the one with 6 holes is going to "choke off" oil to the engine ... it's not.

If you want to get a feeling of how much flow resistance (aka "delta-p") oil filters have, look at this flow test data.

Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

You switched your temps here, but yes exactly. It's easier to heat a fluid up then to cool it down to reach a target viscosity. I also don't like to get fluids to hot. Around 40C is where I don't like to go beyond if I can help it. Nice graphs and homework on this equivalency!

bobistheoilguy.com

For years, people had this misconception that the Purolator PureOne was "flow restrictive" ... until Purolator provided flow vs delat-p data on a mid sized PureOne filter. This is flow performance with a 5W-30 viscosity oil at normal operating oil temperatures. Also, with many of today's high efficiency oil filters they can both filter at high efficiency and flow very well - meaning there is low delta-p with flow. Also look at the efficiency data in that same test thread (link below the graph).

View attachment 96489

Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?

I have this as a “watched” thread, so if you do happen to start a new one, could you put a note or link in this one to direct followers to the new thread? Thanks!! Yes, no problem I can do that.

bobistheoilguy.com

Wow, great info thank you for this.

 

[dnewton3]

All major brand filters are more than capable of decent efficiency AND more than adequate for the needed flow.

Why in the world folks think filters are "too restrictive" is beyond me. There's a HUGE misconception, as Zee discussed, that somehow folks believe that flow and efficiency are mutually exclusive. THEY ARE NOT!

Filters are designed such that they will provide the needed flow and efficiency over the entire prescribed duration of use (10k, 20k, 15k ... whatever they are "rated" for).

Between all the web-based electrons spent regurgitating the same info year after year, and the reams of data storage consumed by archived threads about the same darn thing, we could probably end the worlds energy problem if folks would just learn to relax about filters and not ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and .......

DON'T OVERTHINK IT!

 

[CarDoc66]

All major brand filters are more than capable of decent efficiency AND more than adequate for the needed flow.

Why in the world folks think filters are "too restrictive" is beyond me. There's a HUGE misconception, as Zee discussed, that somehow folks believe that flow and efficiency are mutually exclusive. THEY ARE NOT!

Filters are designed such that they will provide the needed flow and efficiency over the entire prescribed duration of use (10k, 20k, 15k ... whatever they are "rated" for).

Between all the web-based electrons spent regurgitating the same info year after year, and the reams of data storage consumed by archived threads about the same darn thing, we could probably end the worlds energy problem if folks would just learn to relax about filters and not ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and .......

DON'T OVERTHINK

Dude you having a bad day? This whole forum is about “questions over and over”…. so if this topic irritates you, why waste your time ****ting on it? If you’re a staff member I really don’t like your tone.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Between all the web-based electrons spent regurgitating the same info year after year, and the reams of data storage consumed by archived threads about the same darn thing, we could probably end the worlds energy problem if folks would just learn to relax about filters and not ask the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and .......

Almost as much energy as mining for Bitcoins ...

 

[dwendt44]

There are other items to consider when thinking 'FLOW'. The number of holes, the size of those holes,
the center tube design. Some 'louvers' don't flow as well as 'holes' and neither flow as well as the
'e-core nylon cage Champ Labs is using on many of their filters, Super Tech as well.
Using an oversize filter, when available, also increases the likelyhood of high flow.

My 2¢

 

[ZeeOSix]

Using an oversize filter, when available, also increases the likelyhood of high flow.

There is no such thing as getting "high flow" or more flow from using one filter over the other. You either get all the flow leaving the PD pump or you don't. The only time you don't get all the flow is if the pump is in pressure relief, which is very rare. An oil filter would basically have to be nearly 100% clogged and have a small bypass valve to make the pump hit relief.

A larger filter however should have more holding capacity and less delta-p vs flow, so that would help keep the filter bypass valve operating events down.

 

[Sayjac]

........A typical new oil filter is about 15 times more free flowing than an engine's oiling system.......

That's it. Why I never have a concern about OF flow in PC is.

As for center tube type, holes, louvers, cage, all provide total openings area equivalent to or more likely more than area inner diameter oil filter block mounting stud. None will provide more flow than the ID area said stud. Same as total inlet holes area mentioned previously.

As for using oversize filter, in a well maintained engine, it's mostly a feel good thing. Jim Allen showed/confirmed that bypass events rare and short duration. And said, the average OF in average oci, less than 50% (loaded) of holding capacity when removed. Certain folks frequenting this forum at or below that level.

 

[dnewton3]

There are other items to consider when thinking 'FLOW'. The number of holes, the size of those holes,
the center tube design. Some 'louvers' don't flow as well as 'holes' and neither flow as well as the
'e-core nylon cage Champ Labs is using on many of their filters, Super Tech as well.

Nope; that's not right.
Flow is flow, and it's dictated by the PD oil pump (presuming it's not in relief).
Oil filters of any major, reputable brand, will flow far more oil than the pump will deliver. The "number of holes, the size of those holes" is completely inconsequential. The filer (as a unit consisting of holes, media, etc) will flow more oil than the pump going to produce. Period.
ONLY if the filter were purposely made with not enough flow cross-sectional area at those inlet holes, would it matter. And not one filter maker is stupid enough to "undersize" the filter in regard to flow. ANY decent filter will flow more than the pump will produce, always.

Using an oversize filter, when available, also increases the likelyhood of high flow.

My 2¢

Again, not correct.

ONLY if the exisiting filter were too restrictive (blinded off media, which essentially never happens), would using an "oversized" filter perhaps delay the same from happening quite as early. It's not a matter of "if" this theorhetical condition would occur, but only "when" it would occur. Having more media does not stop the blinded-off condition; it only delays it. And, having media blind off is completely an overblown fear, and would only happen in a horribly neglected condition by overrunning the change interval in some massive way. As mentioned above, Jim Allen's testing showed BP events are actually quite a rare occurence, and typically only happen for a second or less at a cold start, with high RPM flare, with a thick lube. And his UOAs have shown that even those rare events happen, there's essentially no undesirable consequence to them happening.

Having a "larger" filter only increases media surface area, but does not alter the "holes". For example, the Wix 51348, 51516, and 51515 all have the same outlet size because they are all made to fit the 3/4-16 thread base, so the "hole" inside that nipple mount which serves as the oil return hole ALL those filters flow the same amount of oil, regardless how big the filter itself is. So, the return hole (filter mount) never changes it's size no matter what filter you put on there. But again, it's moot because the filters and mount will flow oil than the pump is going to deliver anyway.



Again, for the umpteenth time, flow restriction in a decent filter is a fear which is massively misunderstood and it's not a thing at all.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Again, for the umpteenth time, flow restriction in a decent filter is a fear which is massively misunderstood and it's not a thing at all.

Yes, any main brand filter is going to be designed to flow without producing undue flow restriction. The graph below is from Andrew's testing and shows the delta-p vs flow of some main brand synthetic filters with hot oil viscosity equivalent to xW-40 at ~200F. At 10.5 GPM (40 LPM) of flow, they all have a flow restriction delta-p of 9 +/- 2 PSI. The PureOne in post #11 (tested by Purolator's lab) was 4.5 PSI at 10.5 GPM, but the oil was thinner (xW-30 at ~200F), so the delta-p is a little lower due to the lower viscosity test oil.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ow-bubble-point-and-burst.334882/post-5791956