Do all synthetics help clean out engines??
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Originally Posted By: BAD1
Thanks, for the explanation about Dino, so Synthetics would clean a engine that has been running conventional oils for most of the engines life then??
The oil companies that make synthetics make that claim, and I think many people agree with the that (but not everyone).
Thanks, for the explanation about Dino, so Synthetics would clean a engine that has been running conventional oils for most of the engines life then??
The oil companies that make synthetics make that claim, and I think many people agree with the that (but not everyone).
Originally Posted By: labman
As a chemist, I doubt PAO's would do any more than a dino. Also, all the tertiary hydrogens should reduce its stability.
The ester based ones should dissolve more polar things better.
I spent 10 years in the paint industry and have some knowledge of solvency.
I doubt the base stock has much of a role in the cleaning ability. There are MANY additives in every bottle of motor oil. Synthetic oils often contain more of and better quality additives. Synthetic blends are sometimes more marketing than anything, but even if it is only 10% synthetic, I'm sure that there is some additional additive content versus a regular bottle of conventional.
That said, I believe that if any motor oil claims it has any additional cleaning ability, it then has more detergent and dispersant content. In theory, a conventional could clean better than a synthetic oil.
As a chemist, I doubt PAO's would do any more than a dino. Also, all the tertiary hydrogens should reduce its stability.
The ester based ones should dissolve more polar things better.
I spent 10 years in the paint industry and have some knowledge of solvency.
I doubt the base stock has much of a role in the cleaning ability. There are MANY additives in every bottle of motor oil. Synthetic oils often contain more of and better quality additives. Synthetic blends are sometimes more marketing than anything, but even if it is only 10% synthetic, I'm sure that there is some additional additive content versus a regular bottle of conventional.
That said, I believe that if any motor oil claims it has any additional cleaning ability, it then has more detergent and dispersant content. In theory, a conventional could clean better than a synthetic oil.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
I`m experiencing the same thing with a 1995 4x4 Chev truck, 220,000kms and on its first go around with Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, right now 3000kms and getting pretty darn dark. I think I`ll change it a bit early. Oil has a gritty feel to it when rubbed between fingers.
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
I`m experiencing the same thing with a 1995 4x4 Chev truck, 220,000kms and on its first go around with Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, right now 3000kms and getting pretty darn dark. I think I`ll change it a bit early. Oil has a gritty feel to it when rubbed between fingers.
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Originally Posted By: buster
Synthetics with high levels of detergents and dispersants help clean. Esters used in PAO based oils are used for solvency. Diesters/POE's both have great solvency.
english?
Synthetics with high levels of detergents and dispersants help clean. Esters used in PAO based oils are used for solvency. Diesters/POE's both have great solvency.
english?
Detergents = Cleaners
Dispersants = Suspend Crud in Oil
Esters = Group V Base oils (synthetic)
POE = An Ester, Polyolester Group V Base oil
Diester = An Ester, Another Group V, and cheaper than POE
PAO = Polyalphaolefin Group IV Base oil (synthetic)
Dispersants = Suspend Crud in Oil
Esters = Group V Base oils (synthetic)
POE = An Ester, Polyolester Group V Base oil
Diester = An Ester, Another Group V, and cheaper than POE
PAO = Polyalphaolefin Group IV Base oil (synthetic)
i had a '96 civic and the motor wasn't dirty inside but it did have some varnish under the valve cover. ran mobil 1 in it and after a few thousand miles ALL of the varnish was gone and it looked brand new. (this was with the older mobil 1 in the more squared off bottles, not sure about the newer stuff)
I used Redline in a vehicle I had just bought with 75k on it and the oil, at 1k was very dark. I'm not sure what was used for oil prior to me purchasing it, but I've used synthetic (whatever is on sale) ever since and it's never darkened up since the Redline was used.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
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Originally Posted By: SnakeOil
That said, I believe that if any motor oil claims it has any additional cleaning ability, it then has more detergent and dispersant content. In theory, a conventional could clean better than a synthetic oil.
Aniline point of the base fluids is a measure of their solvency of polar materials. Typically it goes as such:
PAO < Group III < Group II < alkylated napthalene < esters used in crankcase oils.
Lower aniline point = more solvency. About 2 years ago I had aniline point tests done on Mobil 1: 0W-40, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40, and 10w30 HM. They all had high aniline points and 10w30 HM had the lowest by a small but significant amount and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 had the highest by a small but significant amount. That is, these oils do NOT contain highly solvent base oil mixtures. The cleaning they may do will be largely from the additive package.
Because of the range of possibilities depending on what's used, we can't generalize about base fluid solvency between conventional and synthetic motor oils without making big caveats. But I'm in agreement that detergent and dispersant additives play a big role and PCMO synthetics generally get the better and/or more concentrated versions of them compared to PCMO conventional oils.
In theory, a purely ester based oil with a large dose of the right type of detergent and dispersant additives would clean the quickest. The oil could cause issues with seals, however since that same solvency they have for polar materials also causes them to go after seal materials...it's "not all good". Red Line 15w40 HDEO is the closest thing to such an oil that I can think of but Dave at Red Line has said their oils use PAO along with the esters.
That said, I believe that if any motor oil claims it has any additional cleaning ability, it then has more detergent and dispersant content. In theory, a conventional could clean better than a synthetic oil.
Aniline point of the base fluids is a measure of their solvency of polar materials. Typically it goes as such:
PAO < Group III < Group II < alkylated napthalene < esters used in crankcase oils.
Lower aniline point = more solvency. About 2 years ago I had aniline point tests done on Mobil 1: 0W-40, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40, and 10w30 HM. They all had high aniline points and 10w30 HM had the lowest by a small but significant amount and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 had the highest by a small but significant amount. That is, these oils do NOT contain highly solvent base oil mixtures. The cleaning they may do will be largely from the additive package.
Because of the range of possibilities depending on what's used, we can't generalize about base fluid solvency between conventional and synthetic motor oils without making big caveats. But I'm in agreement that detergent and dispersant additives play a big role and PCMO synthetics generally get the better and/or more concentrated versions of them compared to PCMO conventional oils.
In theory, a purely ester based oil with a large dose of the right type of detergent and dispersant additives would clean the quickest. The oil could cause issues with seals, however since that same solvency they have for polar materials also causes them to go after seal materials...it's "not all good". Red Line 15w40 HDEO is the closest thing to such an oil that I can think of but Dave at Red Line has said their oils use PAO along with the esters.
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
This is off-topic but with some regret I'll continue it. Blowing up is far-fetched. Not far-fetched but a real possibility is increasing the wear rate at an amount that still allows a reasonably long engine life but leading to a reduced life, nonetheless. MB is aware of reduced viscosity oils such as XW-20 and they have not adopted them. I cannot say why but am sure they have good reasons other than "XW-20 oil availability".
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
This is off-topic but with some regret I'll continue it. Blowing up is far-fetched. Not far-fetched but a real possibility is increasing the wear rate at an amount that still allows a reasonably long engine life but leading to a reduced life, nonetheless. MB is aware of reduced viscosity oils such as XW-20 and they have not adopted them. I cannot say why but am sure they have good reasons other than "XW-20 oil availability".
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
well,i have had a few mercedes in my family.including myself over the years.most current being an 06 C-280,and they dont recommend light oils. 0W-40 is what is recommend in the one we have now.
Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 in '00 MB E430 the first time when the car had 90k miles on odometer, before that it had Mobil 1 0W40 all its life. After only 1k miles with PP the oil color was dark and became very dark after 2k miles and almost back after 3k miles. I believe PP is very good at engine cleaning.
5W-20 in a mercedes-benz?? :no-no:
If it runs fine, doesn't blow up, and produces good used oil analysis then how is it even remotely a bad thing?
well,i have had a few mercedes in my family.including myself over the years.most current being an 06 C-280,and they dont recommend light oils. 0W-40 is what is recommend in the one we have now.
I think of it like water...tap vs synthetic (pure).
Tap water will have a bunch of junk in it while synthetic would be pure H2O.
When washing your clothes either one would work fine. It's the detergent that really matters.
Tap water will have a bunch of junk in it while synthetic would be pure H2O.
When washing your clothes either one would work fine. It's the detergent that really matters.
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Originally Posted By: JAG
....
Aniline point of the base fluids is a measure of their solvency of polar materials. Typically it goes as such:
PAO < Group III < Group II < alkylated napthalene < esters used in crankcase oils.
Lower aniline point = more solvency. ....
Do you have things backwards here? The PAO is still a pure hydrocarbon with no polarity. As you get into the napthalene with its ring structure, it will show some solvency for polar materials, and esters and other oxygenated compounds even more.
If a PAO based oil shows better detergency than a dino, it is purely the additives.
....
Aniline point of the base fluids is a measure of their solvency of polar materials. Typically it goes as such:
PAO < Group III < Group II < alkylated napthalene < esters used in crankcase oils.
Lower aniline point = more solvency. ....
Do you have things backwards here? The PAO is still a pure hydrocarbon with no polarity. As you get into the napthalene with its ring structure, it will show some solvency for polar materials, and esters and other oxygenated compounds even more.
If a PAO based oil shows better detergency than a dino, it is purely the additives.
labman, I now see that my post is unclear. That order was intended be relative to solvency, not aniline point as could be misinterpreted. Sorry to all who were misled!
Ah, I expect PAO and all the dinos to be low solvency and close to the same.
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