Do all replacement LED headlight bulbs suck?

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

But in typical BITOG style, it's new therefore should be shunned, and people who have absolutely no experience with/even owned whatever it is will dismiss it and everyone who's happy with it.

Once the world's scientists and engineers have been able to write down, on a piece of paper, a set of standards for LED retrofit bulbs, I will gladly dump every halogen bulb in my car for LEDs. Until that day, I find that the current crop of products on the market are jumping the gun, to put it mildly. I've had plenty of experiences with the LED bulbs you wrote about, including a dead-on-arrival experience. It's funny that we talk so much about oils meeting spec, like SN, or ATF+4, or Dex III, but we're so eager to buy into the latest LED fad when, for the last 2+ years, the world's scientists and engineers haven't been able to actually write down, on a piece of paper, what makes an acceptable LED retrofit bulb . I don't buy "draft"-Dexron 7 fluid .

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Nick1994

It isn't so much about the cost of replacing the bulbs, I just don't want to cram my hands in there to replace them. I can't find 9011 bulbs in auto parts stores easily here, they're pretty rare. And since I clip them with wire cutters to make them fit, they probably aren't warranty-able. And there was no glare whatsoever with the LEDs or with the 9011s.

There is no use arguing with them. Just be careful, they may go vigilante on you if you go with LED's! Diode Dynamics has a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. Don't like them, send them back for a refund... but yes, they're friggin expensive, and like I said if they fail I'm not buying more. But, they're still working perfectly in totally sealed enclosures (I.e heat build up) 7 months later. Another thing, a lot of led bulbs are "clockable" and may not be in the right position. My SL1's needed clocked. Most of the time the led chips need to be in the 9 and 3 position, otherwise you get poor beam patterns/no hot spot.

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Originally Posted by Skippy722

But in typical BITOG style, it's new therefore should be shunned, and people who have absolutely no experience with/even owned whatever it is will dismiss it and everyone who's happy with it.

Once the world's scientists and engineers have been able to write down, on a piece of paper, a set of standards for LED retrofit bulbs, I will gladly dump every halogen bulb in my car for LEDs. Until that day, I find that the current crop of products on the market are jumping the gun, to put it mildly. I've had plenty of experiences with the LED bulbs you wrote about, including a dead-on-arrival experience. It's funny that we talk so much about oils meeting spec, like SN, or ATF+4, or Dex III, but we're so eager to buy into the latest LED fad when, for the last 2+ years, the world's scientists and engineers haven't been able to actually write down, on a piece of paper, what makes an acceptable LED retrofit bulb . I don't buy "draft"-Dexron 7 fluid .

And I don't run MS-6395 approved spec oil in my vehicles Why don't you report DD to the feds, since it'd be pretty bold of them to claim their SL1's are FMVSS108 compliant if they weren't. They get busted, I'll post a video of me smashing mine to bits with a BFH right here.

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Nick1994

It isn't so much about the cost of replacing the bulbs, I just don't want to cram my hands in there to replace them. I can't find 9011 bulbs in auto parts stores easily here, they're pretty rare. And since I clip them with wire cutters to make them fit, they probably aren't warranty-able. And there was no glare whatsoever with the LEDs or with the 9011s.

Those are valid concerns. In my experience, all the O'Reilly's in my area stocked 1 9011 bulb, and the local distributions had a few more that could be shipped, same-day, to your store of choice. But that's just my area, not sure about yours. In my experience, the counterperson warranties them out for me, no questions asked, but that's a good point. Some people are likely to be sticklers. Unfortunately, there's no much in the way of extended-life, halogen 9011 bulbs. The problem goes back to the drawing board--Hyundai chose to use a high-beam bulb (9005) as a dual-purpose (low and high-beam) headlamp bulb. High-beam bulbs weren't really designed for constant-on usage, so they aren't really built to last years. The LED bulb mentioned above is admittedly better than most of the other products on the market, but it's not quite perfect yet. And maybe it'll last longer, or maybe it won't. If you could somehow figure out how to swap your headlamps for the D3S headlamps offered on that same model year Sonata, then you wouldn't have to worry about any of this anymore. Lifespan: >1500 hours. Illumination: excellent. Upfront cost: very high...but hey, HIDs are still the gold standard, right? Isn't that what everyone on Facebook says?

Originally Posted by Skippy722

There is no use arguing with them. Just be careful, they may go vigilante on you if you go with LED's!

Unlike some other posters, I'm not interested in an argument. You seem like a reasonable guy on Facebook. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion here, on a forum, and away from all the fanatics. Unfortunately, it seems that you don't really have much to say in response to my points.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Unlike some other posters, I'm not interested in an argument. You seem like a reasonable guy on Facebook. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion here, on a forum, and away from all the fanatics. Unfortunately, it seems that you don't really have much to say in response to my points.

I haven't been a part of any headlight groups for a few months now. They turned into "omg look at this guy glaring me!" pages and less cool retrofits.

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Unlike some other posters, I'm not interested in an argument. You seem like a reasonable guy on Facebook. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion here, on a forum, and away from all the fanatics. Unfortunately, it seems that you don't really have much to say in response to my points.

I haven't been a part of any headlight groups for a few months now. They turned into "omg look at this guy glaring me!" pages and less cool retrofits.

And your wall got taken away, I believe?

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Unlike some other posters, I'm not interested in an argument. You seem like a reasonable guy on Facebook. I was hoping we could have a reasonable discussion here, on a forum, and away from all the fanatics. Unfortunately, it seems that you don't really have much to say in response to my points.

I haven't been a part of any headlight groups for a few months now. They turned into "omg look at this guy glaring me!" pages and less cool retrofits.

And your wall got taken away, I believe?

Nah. I got a better wall, a "yuge" wall!

 

[billt460]

If these things, (LED retrofit bulbs), are so dangerously horrible and blinding, why aren't we hearing about cops increasing the ticketing of people for having them? (Failure to dim your headlights for an oncoming car is considered a hazard, and is a ticketable offense). Or else insurance companies screaming about increased claims from accidents they have caused? The only place I seem to hear about how disgustingly terrible they are on a regular basis is here. Along with how anyone who installs them should be drawn and quartered, with their family forced to watch. I'm not saying there aren't certain types of these things that might cause increased glare. But come on, is it really enough to cause cranial vein poppage, just because someone installs them? I've been blinded far more by poorly adjusted headlamps, than I have LED's that were too bright. And most of the LED's that I've been blinded by, were on high priced Mercedes and BMW's. So I doubt they were cheap, add on retro fits. If these things were as horrible as many on this thread would suggest, there would be a far greater cry to get rid of them. It seems odd they could manage to get lawn darts banned, yet these things go unchecked in the marketplace. Thereby putting the lives of millions of helpless townspeople in danger every time the Sun sets across America..... And no, I do not have them installed in any of my vehicles. So I really don't have any breed of dog in this fight. Or perhaps because of my age, it just takes more to get me foaming at the mouth these days.

 

[ofelas]

Badly aimed headlamps, no matter the flavor, are a bit annoying ;-) I haven't had any experience with drop in LED/HID bulbs into existing housings. Most of what I use are 5x7 rectangular units, and after Hellas (junk) Cibies, Bobis & Marchals (all excellent) in various DOT & ECE patterns, I settled on these for all my vehicles that use 5x7" housings - they blow the above mentioned H4s away - https://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-headlights-model-8910-evolution-2/

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by billt460

Or else insurance companies screaming about increased claims from accidents they have caused?

How the US does things is different from how Europe does things. https://www.keithmichaels.co.uk/modified-cars-insurance/car-insurance-modifications-guide/ https://www.osram.com/ecat/LEDrivin...63272/PP_EUROPE_Europe_eCat/ZMP_4057335/

Quote

Please note: These products do not have ECE approval. This means they must not be used on public roads in any exterior application. Use on public roads leads to cancellation of operating license and loss of insurance coverage.

Now, it would be interesting to hear from actual European BITOGers whether and how these rules are enforced. It's pretty clear, that at least in the books, European insurance companies take car mods a little more seriously than American insurance companies. Whether or not they actually do anything about mods is another issue. Do they actually investigate cars thoroughly after accidents? Oh, that guy bored out his engine and made +100 horsepower, insurance coverage denied! Would be interesting to hear about how it actually plays out in real life.

Originally Posted by ofelas

Most of what I use are 5x7 rectangular units, and after Hellas (junk) Cibies, Bobis & Marchals (all excellent) in various DOT & ECE patterns, I settled on these for all my vehicles that use 5x7" housings - they blow the above mentioned H4s away - https://www.jwspeaker.com/products/led-headlights-model-8910-evolution-2/

Those are great lamps. I find that most people approach car headlamp "upgrades" the same way most people approach car mechanical issues--throw parts at the problem, without sitting down and thinking: "what is the actual issue?" Car won't start? Let me just throw a battery, starter, alternator, fusible link, voltage regulator, window regulator, heater core, and dielectric grease at my car! It's gotta start afterward, right?? Can't see anything at night? Let me just throw some Silverstars, Amazon LEDs, HID kits, TYC replica headlamps, etc. at my car! It's gotta be great afterward, right? I've been tooling around in a 14-year-old Toyota Camry with reflector headlamps, and the headlamps, when I first started driving it, sucked. I started looking for upgrades. I already know what the more "enlightened" have to say about my vehicle's headlamps: HID retrofit. Supposedly the gold standard, and sure, I will concede: when done correctly, HID retrofits can be pretty decent. The issues, are, however, will it be done correctly? It's not a trivial task. It's also not an inexpensive task. And a HID retrofit on this car is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater--the stock halogen reflector lamps aren't bad--they're perfectly serviceable, when in good condition (not degraded by 14 years of sun exposure). Instead, I chose to replace my lamps with new OEM units and swapped out the bulbs for some high-performance halogen ones. I also put in a relay harness and installed a diode across the Alt-S fuse to boost voltage to the lamps by 1 volt. can see so well now it's ridiculous, and I didn't spend more than $150 doing so, and I didn't need to deal with baking open lamps and all the associated issues, such as re-sealing the lamps and increased likelihood of moisture intrusion. The other week, when the hurricane rolled by, and all the street lights were out, I just had to flick on my high-beams. The cutoff on the lows is also sharp and well-defined. Not bad for some old-school reflector technology. Sure, I could have done a HID retrofit, or maybe put in some expensive and fancy LED bulbs that are being developed with the help of a forum poster, but that's akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. In my case, the stock lamps, despite being reflectors (a dirty word in the world of Facebook headlamp experts), were perfectly fine. They just needed to be replaced by units that weren't hazed over from 14-years of UV exposure, and needed some new bulbs. In some cars, the headlamps are fine but the voltage getting to the bulbs is not fine. Again, a problem that can be solved with either a relay harness (cheap) or an entire overhaul of the headlamp system (expensive). Now, not all halogen headlamps are fine, and in those cases, a HID retrofit is something I'd understand. Trucks come to mind: many trucks come with totally sucky headlamps, and there ain't a [censored] thing you can do about it apart from overhauling the entire thing. But in my case, a HID retrofit is kinda unnecessary, sort of like replacing your battery, starter, and alternator when all that was keeping your car from starting was the battery. What really makes me chuckle is when people complain that their stock headlamps suck and that they want HIDs without realizing that stock bulbs are low-output bulbs, and only get worse with time. A stock bulb is already putting out ~80% of a high-performance bulb's output, and with time, that number falls off even more. It's like saying that your 5-year old car battery is weak, and wanting to make room in the engine bay for a bigger battery. A bigger battery might help, but so would a fresh battery of the same size. Sure, you can replace the stock bulb with a HID kit or LED bulb, but there's so little diagnosis that goes into car issues nowadays. It's just "what parts can I order right now?" In my case, instead of dropping the big $$$ on a professional HID retrofit, I saved the money and instead invested it in other safety upgrades, like a LED CHMSL, for one. Not all of the important lighting on a car is on the front .

 

[Surestick]

I can see there is an argument that, even properly aimed with a good beam pattern, putting a brighter light source in a housing not designed for it would contribute to extra glare. The headlight, by design, puts a certain percentage of light above the cutoff to illuminate road signs and to be visible to other road users. I assume this percentage is going to be determined by how much light the stock source is expected to put out (a dimmer light source would need a greater percentage of light above the cutoff to provide enough illumination to be useable). If you put a much brighter light source than what it is designed for in the headlight, even one that is properly aimed and still has a good cutoff (I'm thinking some of the newer LED bulbs designed for Halogen housings like the Morimoto 2stroke 2.0 or Diode Dynamics that try and place small LEDs in the same area where the filament would be in a halogen bulb) you'll get a good beam pattern, better illumination, and, because the light source is brighter, more light above the cutoff causing more glare. This glare is going to be compounded by a light source that's whiter and, therefore, more prone to glare than the stock one. The person who installed the bulb (plus their marketing people, and various Youtube reviewers) can go on until they're blue in the face about a proper cutoff and good beam pattern but they're still blinding other motorists because they're throwing more light down the road above the cutoff right into the eyes of oncoming drivers. This argument is confirmed by the fact it's illegal to put higher wattage "offroad only" bulbs of the same type in housings they're designed for. In this case you can't argue a bad beam pattern or cutoff since the bulb is of the type the housing is designed for, just brighter.

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Surestick

some of the newer LED bulbs designed for Halogen housings like the Morimoto 2stroke 2.0 or Diode Dynamics that try and place small LEDs in the same area where the filament would be in a halogen bulb)

I just find it hard to buy something from a guy who publicly stated that he couldn't afford buying SAE papers just a few years ago when his current products were in the development stage. While I appreciate Paul McCain's honesty, and his commitment to American manufacturing, and I always love backing the underdog in a good fight, I just can't find myself reaching for my wallet to buy something from him. At least he has a generous return policy, which I've definitely taken advantage of numerous times (in good faith; I simply couldn't ethically justify keeping any of his products on my car). Call me crazy, but if Castrol said tomorrow "we can't actually afford SAE papers on tribology, but please buy our motor oil anyway," I would be hesitant in reaching for another bottle of Castrol Edge 5W-30. Maybe I'm just crazy . Or maybe I just need the government to tell me what to do/what not to do . In all seriousness, the 2stroke2.0 is a joke. Yes, it has a relatively thin line of chips on both sides of the "bulb" to "mimic" a filament. But whoever drew it up didn't actually align the chips on both sides with each other. In other words, the chips on the two sides of the bulb are actually vertically offset with regard to each other. On one side of the bulb, the light-emitting portions of the chips are lower than the ones on the opposite side. So, they failed the first step toward mimicking a real filament. A real filament is cylindrical, and symmetric along the longitudinal axis. A 2stroke2.0 is not symmetric along the light center length . Maybe they'll get that tiny detail right in time for the 2stroke3.0, which is guaranteed (just like the previous version) to work in reflectors and projectors!

 

[Skippy722]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I most likely am, but isn't SAE more of a standards and best practices type thing, where FMVSS are the actual laws one must abide by? So you could be within FMVSS's tolerances, but outside SAE? And I apologize for being a huge dick. I went back and reread these posts with a cool head, and I understand what y'all are saying. I've since been debating on going back to 9011 halogens, the fog out here where we moved is unreal. Blue light+fog=bad time man

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I most likely am, but isn't SAE more of a standards and best practices type thing, where FMVSS are the actual laws one must abide by? So you could be within FMVSS's tolerances, but outside SAE?

FMVSS are the rules that one should abide by, yes. SAE papers include technical standards, and much of FMVSS is based on SAE standards in one way or another. Sometimes parts of the FMVSS are based on ancient SAE standards. Sometimes FMVSS takes what it likes from SAE and ignores the parts it doesn't like. My point is that not having access to SAE standards while working on automotive stuff is sort of like teaching advanced calculus without a textbook. Sure, you could teach advanced calc without a textbook...but...what would you fall back on when you're not clear on something? Google? Google is probably fine many times, but a textbook is more likely to be correct versus something someone posted on the Internet, because anyone can post anything on the Internet. And a textbook is likely to go much more in-depth with the material than some random post online. Teaching advanced calculus without a textbook to consult is just an unnecessary way to kneecap yourself; all people who teach calculus should have access to a textbook. Similarly, anyone who wants to design automotive stuff and sell it for $$ should ideally have access to SAE papers and standards, for reference, inspiration, and ideas about what to avoid. It was painful seeing Paul talking about designing replacement LED bulbs for cars but incorrectly citing lumen figures for the incandescent bulbs he was aiming to replace...it certainly didn't inspire any confidence! Access to SAE standards, or any good automotive reference book (like the Bosch guide) would have handily solved that issue. Anyway, Diode Dynamics' products are by and far the best available on the market today (much better than the 2stroke2.0, but people like to lump them together as if they were equivalent). However, in my experience, they're not quite there yet in terms of actually being better than halogens in a majority of cases. I respect Paul for actually giving us something halfway decent. As for the original question (Do all replacement LED headlights suck?)...the short answer, in my opinion, would be "yes, for the most part." The long answer would be that there is one halfway acceptable design on the market, and that is Paul's design. LED lighting is something that holds a lot of promise but is also something people need to be wary about. There is absolutely no shortage of people who are willing to make a quick buck off you, your life be [censored]. Sylvania (major company) has been selling replacement LED brake light bulbs that literally don't get brighter when you hit the brake pedal....talk about creating a false sense of security! This is stuff that can get you killed on the highway, and Sylvania puts their name on it. That alone should give anyone pause about buying any sort of LED retrofit: if Sylvania doesn't care if you live or die, what makes that Amazon brand any better? And yet people are so quick to jump onto the LED bandwagon. I have no issue with LEDs in general. I only take issue with those who are trying to make a quick buck, your life be screwed. And those people include major players (like Sylvania and Philips) and minor players (all the Amazon brands, etc.) LEDs for cars are truly unlike anything else you can slap onto your car. With most things you can install on your car, there is a valid presumption of safety. Take motor oil, for example. There are basically no harmful motor oils you can put in your car (given that it's the correct viscosity) and not from a sketchy gas station. You can even put motor oil from Dollar Tree in your car and it'll run just fine (all the Dollar Trees in my area got rid of that API "SA" motor oil a long time ago). Same with brake pads. Basically all the brake pads from Amazon, Rock Auto, AutoZone, etc are perfectly safe for use. But LEDs are a different animal--you can easily buy Sylvania LEDs that don't light up when you mash the brakes on the highway--you can get them at AutoZone today, right this minute. I don't agree with the guy who advocated violence, but I think I'd be pretty livid if I found that someone I cared about rear-ended someone with the Sylvania LEDs that don't actually light up when you brake. I might even end up like the short guy below if I really lost my temper ;): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQQg9aiU8MA

 

[JustinH]

So in 2011, only the "fancy" Hybrid Sonata had the LED strip lights factory. Mine has high and low beam halogen bulbs, no LED strip. The high beam acts as the DRL and runs at lower output. I actually purchased two sets of bulbs from the candlepower store. Both were Osram Nightbreaker. Did not notice much of an advantage going to that, but a small light color change (from brown/yellow to more white)

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Deontologist

snip

Thank you. I like your textbook analogy, I'll be going back to halogens till I decide whether I want to get OEM HID headlights or just stick with the halogens. And I've seen a few of those shoddy LED brake lights, they either don't get brighter at all or the difference is so small you can easily miss it.

 

[Deontologist]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

And I've seen a few of those shoddy LED brake lights, they either don't get brighter at all or the difference is so small you can easily miss it.

Yep, it's really unfortunate for them to have dropped $$$ on stuff that not only doesn't help but also makes things worse! If I were a police officer, I'd want to have a quick roadside chat and suggest they return the LEDs for either something that they can verify works better, be it LED or incandescent. Perhaps instead of just slapping in the LED and seeing if it turns on, get a helper from the parts store to pump the brake pedal a few times so you can see that the bulbs actually get significantly brighter! Forget about the ticket, I'd much rather have them leave happy and informed rather than angry, embarrassed, and out of even more money . But yeah, it just goes to show that you're the only person on "your" side in the world of automotive LED retrofits. Personally, I'd feel sort of bad if I made money off LED brake bulbs that don't light up. What if it gets some poor chap hurt? I guess some people don't quite have a conscience . It's definitely a buyer beware market right now, and hopefully that'll change!

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by Deontologist

Originally Posted by Skippy722

And I've seen a few of those shoddy LED brake lights, they either don't get brighter at all or the difference is so small you can easily miss it.

Yep, it's really unfortunate for them to have dropped $$$ on stuff that not only doesn't help but also makes things worse! If I were a police officer, I'd want to have a quick roadside chat and suggest they return the LEDs for either something that they can verify works better, be it LED or incandescent. Perhaps instead of just slapping in the LED and seeing if it turns on, get a helper from the parts store to pump the brake pedal a few times so you can see that the bulbs actually get significantly brighter! Forget about the ticket, I'd much rather have them leave happy and informed rather than angry, embarrassed, and out of even more money . But yeah, it just goes to show that you're the only person on "your" side in the world of automotive LED retrofits. Personally, I'd feel sort of bad if I made money off LED brake bulbs that don't light up. What if it gets some poor chap hurt? I guess some people don't quite have a conscience . It's definitely a buyer beware market right now, and hopefully that'll change!

So... do I go with factory 9005's, or go back to 9011's? And again, I'm truly sorry for how I acted. I guess I just didn't want to admit I spent $180 on bulbs that at best, are just meh.

 

[Deontologist]

No need to apologise, no offense was taken! Yes, 9011s from any brand except Wagner would be a nice upgrade...Wagner takes the QA rejected bulbs and repackages them.

 

[Skippy722]

Ordered and will be here next week I will take some wall shots and road shots to "compare" them just out of curiosity

 

[Bear]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

Originally Posted by Dave9

What is it you don't understand? There is no suck or not suck "poor lil old me it doesn't last long". There is only, you are an irresponsible person for ever putting LED retrofits in incan housings and law enforcement needs to crack down on this. EVERYONE who puts an LED retrofit in an incan housing needs their driver's license revoked and their vehicle impounded. That's the polite way to put it. When I see these blinding lights on the road, my thoughts drift more towards vigilante justice. You have been warned, that some random person, and I am not alone by any stretch, is getting really [censored] off at idiots who put this crap in their incan headlights then blind other drivers. Just don't do it. Man up and buy housings designed for LED lighting instead of either pretending you are cool for having bluer lights, or being so blind that you shouldn't be on the road if you can't see with stock lights which are legally required to provide enough light to drive safety if you weren't too blind to safely drive at night. There is no such thing as "my vehicle blah blah blah" wasn't good enough headlights. If your headlights were hazed over, clean or replace the lenses. If you're just an immature child that thinks more is better, you could not be more wrong. More cold light blinds people and causes accidents. Remember that the vehicle alternator would have no problem at all supporting multiple times as much incandescent lighting output as vehicles have had, so did you think this was some magic upper limit with incan bulb brightness? It wasn't, AT ALL. It was regulated for very good reason.

His Sonata has projector style lights. He has a very distinct line between what is lit, and what isn't, unlike the reflector style housings. Just like mine. How are you going to know whether someone like me or him has factory hid/led or aftermarket? Vigilante justice over headlights? You're a [censored] psycho who deserves to be in a mental ward. Seriously, get off your high horse. Oh, and modern cars do not use incandescent lights for headlights. Probably should learn what you're complaining about before you go all "vigilante" on the wrong person and get your [censored] beaten or lose your own life. Most of the crazy blinding white lights are in fact poorly aimed FACTORY HID/LED. Escalades, Acura's, Kia/Hyundai, and Ford Explorers seem to be the biggest offenders. Those hurt and are far more blinding than any aftermarket LED currently on the market. Really seems like you're the immature child here... vigilante justice over headlights, rage about expensive pick up trucks... are you ever happy or do you just [censored] about everything?

Right! Vehicles with oem led lighting are often very blinding, even the led "parking" lights! So it's not just after market installs. I get flashed sometimes, mostly on unlit country roads by low slung cars. And my lights ARE adjusted. But hey, I drive a pickup.