DIY Wheel Alignment

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: artbuc

I would not trust the local Firestone shop to check the air in my tires. I am sure there are many competent Firestone shops around but I would not know how to separate the good from the bad.

How would a shop screw up a wheel alignment using computerized equipment?


Did you see my other thread on Corolla alignment? The car drove funny after the Firestone "computerized alignment." I did DIY check with parallel strings and there is too much toe in the left front wheel and the numbers for rear wheels are different than the "printout". I don't remember them taking off wheel covers during the whole thing. At that time I thought it was weird, now, I'm positive it was a hack job.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
As long as toe-in is correct, tire wear is usually at a minimum... Caster and camber will effect the way the vehicles tracks, uneven caster and it will pull to one side...

I use a 1940s Bear alignment plate to set toe, have fixed numerous issues in about 15min... That includes a almost new E-250 van that was so bow legged from the factory it was destroying a set of front tires in approx 20K mi(also drove(tracked)poorly... Was most certainly a factory issue as all it's sister vans had same issue...

BTW I'd post a pict but it's loaned out to a friend who's working on a race car...


Econoline 3/4 tons just have weird front wear patterns anyway.

 

[The_Jeff]

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

How would a shop screw up a wheel alignment using computerized equipment?


Garbage in, garbage out! I don't care how great the system is, an improperly trained or incompetent tech can screw it up.


For starters, outright fraud. Someone can shove a tire closer to correct with their body weight then click a button and "lock in" the revised numbers. Naturally this bounces back when the tech lets go.

 

[hsd]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: artbuc

I would not trust the local Firestone shop to check the air in my tires. I am sure there are many competent Firestone shops around but I would not know how to separate the good from the bad.

How would a shop screw up a wheel alignment using computerized equipment?


I once had a chain store do a 4 wheel computer alignment and it drove worse than when I took it in. Took it back after a few days and they basically put it back to the original settings. Manager said one of their alignment machines was "out of calibration" and they now had it fixed (really?). Anyway, I eliminated them from doing any future alignment work.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: hsd

I once had a chain store do a 4 wheel computer alignment and it drove worse than when I took it in. Took it back after a few days and they basically put it back to the original settings. Manager said one of their alignment machines was "out of calibration" and they now had it fixed (really?). Anyway, I eliminated them from doing any future alignment work.


I have a similar problem as I mentioned in my above post. Unfortunately, I got suckered into buying a lifetime alignment.

I looked around on the web and looks like the warranty is a farce as techs will often do fake alignments for the "non paying customers."

Here is what a disgruntled insider said about lifetime alignment:

Quote:
LIFETIME ALIGNMENTS.. actually not a bad deal, if you use the policy, AND IF THE STORE ACTUALLY RECHECKS IT FOR YOU WHEN YOU BRING IT IN FOR A FREE ALIGNMENT UNDER THE PLAN. Alignments are 100% profit, but the mechanics have to get paid to do the work when the car comes back in for a free alignment... sooo either they will try and sell you parts that may not be really needed, or they will lie to tell you and tell you that the alignment is in spec.


from: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Firestone-...er-Manager-6302

Other leaks from disgruntled employees don't inspire confidence in this outfit either:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Firestone/...-Georgia-277614

This is what I'm going to do. I will go to a different Firestone with a coupon for free alignment check. If they say the alignment is bad (and I'm positive it's bad as I did my own DIY check), I will produce the lifetime warranty paper.

 

[Kestas]

Lately I've been doing my own wheel alignments. Once I get the specs and work out the geometry, the toe-in typically works out to 1/4-inch inward when measuring the tire separation front vs back just under the chassis. Camber is checked with a level and is usually good. The level is calibrated with a plumb line.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: hsd

I once had a chain store do a 4 wheel computer alignment and it drove worse than when I took it in. Took it back after a few days and they basically put it back to the original settings. Manager said one of their alignment machines was "out of calibration" and they now had it fixed (really?). Anyway, I eliminated them from doing any future alignment work.


I have a similar problem as I mentioned in my above post. Unfortunately, I got suckered into buying a lifetime alignment.

I looked around on the web and looks like the warranty is a farce as techs will often do fake alignments for the "non paying customers."

Here is what a disgruntled insider said about lifetime alignment:

Quote:
LIFETIME ALIGNMENTS.. actually not a bad deal, if you use the policy, AND IF THE STORE ACTUALLY RECHECKS IT FOR YOU WHEN YOU BRING IT IN FOR A FREE ALIGNMENT UNDER THE PLAN. Alignments are 100% profit, but the mechanics have to get paid to do the work when the car comes back in for a free alignment... sooo either they will try and sell you parts that may not be really needed, or they will lie to tell you and tell you that the alignment is in spec.


from: http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Firestone-...er-Manager-6302

Other leaks from disgruntled employees don't inspire confidence in this outfit either:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Firestone/...-Georgia-277614

This is what I'm going to do. I will go to a different Firestone with a coupon for free alignment check. If they say the alignment is bad (and I'm positive it's bad as I did my own DIY check), I will produce the lifetime warranty paper.

I don't know what location you go to, but where I typically go the work area is open and viewable from the parking lot. Often I'm there and have nothing else to do, so I've been just outside as my car was worked on. I've seen my car on the alignment rig during the courtesy check. Maybe it's all just a dog and pony show to give me the impression that they're doing something, but I doubt it since it's a technician making $30+/hr doing it. I know what they're hoping to do, which is uncover services that they can perform. I've gotten plenty of "recommendations" over the years but have declined every single time. And every single recommendation has been legit - especially new tires. I'm not always impressed with their recommended tires (been recommended RE92s), but in general they've never lied to me about tires being worn or parts being bad.

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Lately I've been doing my own wheel alignments. Once I get the specs and work out the geometry, the toe-in typically works out to 1/4-inch inward when measuring the tire separation front vs back just under the chassis. Camber is checked with a level and is usually good. The level is calibrated with a plumb line.


Agree. I previously posted DIY alignment is not for me but now that I have tried I find it very simple. Everything falls into place once I understood the difference between total toe and per wheel toe. Also, working in degrees instead of fractions allows a much more accurate measurement.

Over the years my right side has taken a beating compared to the left. When I changed struts at 85k, the right was totally shot while the left was fine. Now my right inner tie rod is a little loose while the left is tight. Toe-in on the front right is way off at 0.42 degrees while the left side is dead nuts on at 0.0.

 

[artbuc]

Originally Posted By: artbuc
Over the years my right side has taken a beating compared to the left. When I changed struts at 85k, the right was totally shot while the left was fine. Now my right inner tie rod is a little loose while the left is tight. Toe-in on the front right is way off at 0.42 degrees while the left side is dead nuts on at 0.0.


Check that. I measured again using 30 lb test line and vernier (showing my age) calipers. I believe I can measure toe +/- 0.02 degrees. The right front has 0.29 degrees toe in while the left front is 0. Both rears are good - 0.20 and 0.22 degrees toe in vs spec of 0.2 +/ -0.1 degrees. Pretty good for a 14 year old car which hasn't had an alignment in well over 5 years.

 

[artificialist]

There is another garbage in garbage out problem with wheel alignments.
Sometimes a manufacturer will issue a TSB with new alignment specs. However, not all shops get their machines updated on time.

The early Nissan 350Z and early Mazda 3 are 2 cars I can think of where that happened.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

I don't know what location you go to, but where I typically go the work area is open and viewable from the parking lot. Often I'm there and have nothing else to do, so I've been just outside as my car was worked on. I've seen my car on the alignment rig during the courtesy check. Maybe it's all just a dog and pony show to give me the impression that they're doing something, but I doubt it since it's a technician making $30+/hr doing it. I know what they're hoping to do, which is uncover services that they can perform. I've gotten plenty of "recommendations" over the years but have declined every single time.


Yap, they put the car on the ramp and fooled with it for at least 30-40 minutes. The weird thing is, every time I looked, I saw wheel covers on the wheels (at least the one side I could see).
I thought it was weird, but then again, I'm not familiar with their equipment.
Another weird thing was, there is only 10 minute difference on the time stamps on the before and after printouts and that was just before they showed me the results.
I posted the printouts here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/3101276/

They didn't recommend any additional service, but it's pretty obvious the car is super over-maintained and I'm knowledgeable about cars.

As for the $30/hr part, you're incorrect. Read the insider scoop on Firestone I posted. If they are honest, they end up making minimum wage.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: y_p_w

I don't know what location you go to, but where I typically go the work area is open and viewable from the parking lot. Often I'm there and have nothing else to do, so I've been just outside as my car was worked on. I've seen my car on the alignment rig during the courtesy check. Maybe it's all just a dog and pony show to give me the impression that they're doing something, but I doubt it since it's a technician making $30+/hr doing it. I know what they're hoping to do, which is uncover services that they can perform. I've gotten plenty of "recommendations" over the years but have declined every single time.


Yap, they put the car on the ramp and fooled with it for at least 30-40 minutes. The weird thing is, every time I looked, I saw wheel covers on the wheels (at least the one side I could see).
I thought it was weird, but then again, I'm not familiar with their equipment.
Another weird thing was, there is only 10 minute difference on the time stamps on the before and after printouts and that was just before they showed me the results.
I posted the printouts here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/3101276/

They didn't recommend any additional service, but it's pretty obvious the car is super over-maintained and I'm knowledgeable about cars.

As for the $30/hr part, you're incorrect. Read the insider scoop on Firestone I posted. If they are honest, they end up making minimum wage.

I remember the same guy working there for several years, and he was one of the alignment techs. If they weren't in, I was told to either wait or come back. I doubt he's sticking around there for minimum wage, especially in the Bay Area. There are a lot of shops in my area that pay $40+/hr and even a place like Firestone would have to be somewhat competitive since the guys staying there could probably bolt after getting their ASE certs and especially if they were required to have them to get certain positions. I'm certainly not thinking their regular tire installers or oil changers are making $30/hr.