Different oil additive packages-questions.

[volk06]

First off this will not and is not a oil bashing thread. Is there anyone that actually knows this? My question is why oils use their selected oil additives. Is sodium better than boron? Is titanium better than moly? Is magnesium inferior to calcium? Does the base oil help decide which additives to use? How can one say one oil is better than another base on a cheap voa or uoa. For instance, people say valvoline add pack is weak and cheap with using sodium but when looking at the uoa it puts up some of the best wear numbers. How can people say that boron and moly is better, like PYB?
All oils being SN rated, should they all perform the same for the most part?

 

[GMorg]

An additive package is just that, a package. It is a balance of a variety of factors for a particular goal. One of the factors is cost. Many will always think that less expensive is equal to less effectiveness. Similarly, many will cling to a single characteristic of an ingredient (Mg ash is harder than Ca ash) without knowing the performance of the final mix. There will always be "give and takes" in the balancing act. There also seem to be a generic assumption that the entire additive package is visible in the average VOA. As a result, we cannot know how the apparent reduction of one ingredient is being compensated by another, "invisible", ingredient.

For a particular parameter, it can be determined if one additive performs better than another additive at a given concentration. However, that does not mean that an additive package that includes the "better" ingredient is a better additive package.

My mother can use the best ingredients available and the meal will not turn out well. My grandmother can use the lowest quality ingredients on the market, and the meal will be wonderful. The performance of the entire package is what's important.

 

[mechtech2]

Like you surmised, all SN oils will be very similar [of course, this is comparing the same viscosity].

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: GMorg

My mother can use the best ingredients available and the meal will not turn out well. My grandmother can use the lowest quality ingredients on the market, and the meal will be wonderful. The performance of the entire package is what's important.


Either way you get a cooked meal!

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
My question is why oils use their selected oil additives. Is sodium better than boron? Is titanium better than moly? Is magnesium inferior to calcium? Does the base oil help decide which additives to use?


For formulating, the series of steps goes like this:

1. Application and Requirements (Automotive lubes, industrial lubricant, jet engine lubricants, metal working and protective oils, specialty, etc).
2. Base oil selection for 1
3. Additive package selection to fulfill requirements of 1, 2.
4. Testing - ASTM, fleet, and the Approval testing.

Internationallly, there are about 5 major additive companies from which to choose your additive package. Many additive companies have additive packages certified to API/ILSAC standards.

When I first started out formulating, one had to choose chemicals and chemical compounds from a myriad of different labs and additive companies because very few additive companies had complete, certified packages at that time.

So a formulator had to know the effect each individual chemical compound had on the final mix, which required a lot of formulation batches, testing for each batch, and so on.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
So a formulator had to know the effect each individual chemical compound had on the final mix, which required a lot of formulation batches, testing for each batch, and so on.


Instead of being a dunce and asking which package is better, what are the basic advantages and disadvantages to a sodium package versus others? I'm not particularly concerned with cost, since oil companies either pass on savings or they don't, or I buy the product or I don't. Your insight on the various packages would be greatly appreciated.

Others have mentioned that they dislike the sodium additive packages because they do UOAs and don't want to see sodium. I don't do UOAs, so it's not really an issue.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Originally Posted By: GMorg

My mother can use the best ingredients available and the meal will not turn out well. My grandmother can use the lowest quality ingredients on the market, and the meal will be wonderful. The performance of the entire package is what's important.


Either way you get a cooked meal!

I'm with GMorg on this one. If you ate something thay my mother cooked you'd understand that the raw ingredients would almost certainly have tasted better. It would be no surprise to find the packaging the ingredients came in tasted better. My grandmother.... yeah, when she died I raided her freezer. Let the other fools worry about jewelry and antiques and whatnot, I went for the good stuff.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
what are the basic advantages and disadvantages to a sodium package versus others? I'm not particularly concerned with cost, since oil companies either pass on savings or they don't, or I buy the product or I don't. Your insight on the various packages would be greatly appreciated.



The sulfonates/carbonates/salicylates of the metals calcium, sodium, potassium, magnesium, etc are mulitfunctional additives used primarily as detergents, and secondarily as rust preventitives, and provide some friction modification.

Since they are chemically basic, they provide the acid fighting capabilities and thus set the TBN of the formulated oil.

I do not have a preference for detergents, and all seem to work well.

When formulating one must balance all the characteristics of all additives with the base oils.

 

[Garak]

Thanks for the info, MolaKule!