Difference between "ESP" and regular oils?

[opposite_locker]

Background: We recently switched from the original M1 0w40 (MB 229.5 spec) at 100k miles to the new 229.51 spec M1 ESP 5w40 in our '05 e320 cdi. The engine is as happy as ever, and there was seemingly no difference in the way the car ran with the new oil.

However...the fuel economy has increased considerably (1-3mpg) and there has been no change other than the oil in the last couple thousand miles. How is this possible? Logic dictates that a similar weight premium synthetic oil should have little to no effect on mileage, especially in a car that doesn't burn a single drop. Even my 2008 Dodge showed little-to-no measurable difference in mileage when switching fron the factory fill 5w20 to M1 0w20 AFE.

This is by no means a scientific observation with controls, but you start to notice when the car is getting 20-50 more miles to the tank than it has in the last 100k.

I understand that oil that is certified for "Emissions System Protection" essentially will leave less ash if burned up in the engine...but what do the oilmakers change about their oil to ensure it leaves behind less ash? Does it require a different basestock? What ingredients/substances need to be removed from an oil to make it less "ashy"?

 

[JAG]

Gasoline make-up changes throughout the months so that could explain some or all of it. Ambient temps. change too but I guess Monterey temps. don't change all that much due to the ocean's moderating effect.

The ash comes from any additive containing a metal atom(s). So reduced SAPS oils have had the concentrations of the following metal-containing additives carefully balanced/chosen:
- ZDDP (Zinc)
- Calcium, Magnesium, and/or Sodium detergents,
- Molybdenum additives

 

[opposite_locker]

Actually this car resides in the East Bay Area, and if anything ambient temperatures have increased as of late, which should have an opposite (if any) effect on mileage. Also, this vehicle is a diesel and we tend to use the same Chevron station for ULSD 90% of the time.

At this point, I'm thinking that maybe it just took 100k miles for this engine to break in. Either that, or Chevron is now injecting their ULSD with fairy dust...

Good info on SAPS oils...does the reduced ZDDP/Moly/Ca/etc. tend to make an oil weaker? I'd be curious to know how they compensate for having to decrease the concentration of these elements.

 

[dwendt44]

Mileage will increase as temparatures rise.

 

[opposite_locker]

Either way, the increase in mpg has been noticed over what has been had over the last 3.5 yrs/100k miles, not just the last few months.

But I was not aware of that...always thought that lower temps contributed to increased mielage due to denser air and the ability to run just a bit leaner w/o detonation (for gas cars-not sure about diesels).

I know all of my vehicles feel noticeably quicker at 40 degrees F than at 80 degrees F. Much above that and the AC is on so not a fair comparison...

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Good info on SAPS oils...does the reduced ZDDP/Moly/Ca/etc. tend to make an oil weaker? I'd be curious to know how they compensate for having to decrease the concentration of these elements.

Yes, reducing beneficial additives requires compensation to maintain the performance. I posted a thread in the Interesting Articles forum showing a patent on making a reduced SAPS oil. It discusses the ins and outs of some ways for how to do it.

I can't explain the gas mileage improvement any further but it's great to hear!

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: opposite_locker
Actually this car resides in the East Bay Area, and if anything ambient temperatures have increased as of late, which should have an opposite (if any) effect on mileage. Also, this vehicle is a diesel and we tend to use the same Chevron station for ULSD 90% of the time.

Okay, I missed the "diesel" part of the equation.

Diesel has to be "winterized" even in those locations like the East Bay where it never gets that cold. What if someone filled up there but then drove to Tahoe? They would make hit halfway up the Donner Summit and the fuel would gell.

Depending on the concentration of winterizing agents, depending on whether the fuel is rated for 0°F or -20°R or -30°F, this will determine how significant the fuel economy hit. And in the spring, it will determine how much improvement you'll see.

Right now, with summer diesel at all the pumps, and with the ambient air still cool enough that you don't have to run the AC all the time, and with increased summer traffic not yet a factor, it should be the best time of the year to own and drive a diesel-powered car. I'm probably still missing one or two lesser reasons why fuel mileage improves in the spring with diesel engines.

 

[bullwinkle]

Winterized #2 diesel usually has the lower energy/less carbon content #1 blended in (think kerosene), hurting MPGs-summer fuel has a higher energy content, usually increasing mileage by 5-7%. Also, most diesels seem to get better mileage when they run hotter (unless they overheat)-IDI diesels seem to benefit even more.

 

[opposite_locker]

I agree completely, but...

Quote:
Either way, the increase in mpg has been noticed over what has been had over the last 3.5 yrs/100k miles, not just the last few months.

 

[badnews]

To answer your question

Emissions System Protection

These oils have low SAPs
Sulpher ash and Phosphorous ---
a lot of American oils have these attributes but are not listed for whatever reason as a --- Emissions System Protection --- oil

I have not had anyone here or at the oil companies answer me as to why ?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: badnews
To answer your question

Emissions System Protection

These oils have low SAPs
Sulpher ash and Phosphorous ---
a lot of American oils have these attributes but are not listed for whatever reason as a --- Emissions System Protection --- oil

I have not had anyone here or at the oil companies answer me as to why ?


Probably just don't want to get the certification.

Low SAPS is defined as meeting ACEA C1 - C4.

 

[badnews]

The big deal I have found is the gas emission burner cleaner built into the DPF system .
This is the reason many vehicles have the new spec .

And my big gripe is that it seems all the oils listed are made in Europe by companies that make and sell oil here in the USA .

It all goes back to my old complaint that the Euro oils are just better than the USA oils

You have Pennzoil Ultra the best thing made for US consumers

and you have Pennzoil Ultra European formula the best oil made period

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: badnews
and you have Pennzoil Ultra European formula the best oil made period

How so?

 

[badnews]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: badnews
and you have Pennzoil Ultra European formula the best oil made period

How so?


By the MBenz specs it has ?
it is spec'd at 229.51
but not the US Pennzoil Ultra ?

 

[d00df00d]

229.51 isn't necessarily better than any other spec. It's just a spec. What's good for one engine isn't necessarily good for all others. That's one of the many reasons we have whole websites and forums about oil...

 

[badnews]

True to an extent . A spec oil is based on what the engineers feel may be best for the machine , however there are many many ways to accomplish a feat ( in this case engine lubrication ) and not all of them will be listed by a company due to cost restraints . For instance I have learned that the Rotella T6 will lube my engine not harm the DPF and allow the emission burner to function properly but I will not see the mileage that a 229.51 spec'd oil may give me, as this is subjective based on a slew of things temp/ road surface / tires / on and on the reduced mileage is too small of a matter to be concerned about .

I am upset that vehicle manufacturers are making spec's that are outlandish to say the least . Why spec an oil that is almost impossible to find or prohibitivly expensive in the USA ?
It is common Euro ------- looking for the correct word superiority might be it --- complex. We use a better oil spec than Ford ?Dodge?Cummings ? so our product must be better

 

[d00df00d]

HOW did you "learn" that the oil will not harm the DPF? All I have seen was that you saw some vague marketing statements on Shell's website and decided that was enough. Was there more?

 

[Thomas34]

sorry to get off topic but I noticed in your signature that you use m1 10w40 HM for your '97 e320.

why dont you use M1 0W40 for this car?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/default.html]

ACEA C2/C3 oils involve trade offs in respect to other oils. These tradeoffs may be detrimental to gasoline powered cars which is why you don't see them being marketed in the US. I know BMW has not approved for use in petrol cars outside a few euro countries due to formulation/quality of gasoline.

 

[badnews]

Quote:
However...the fuel economy has increased considerably (1-3mpg)



1-3 MPG is considerable ?
You could do that will an inflation of the tires

You are mesmerized by a spec
1-3 MPG is not considerable in any shape or form