Diesel Focus

[Danh]

The US public's perception of diesels is skewed. First, there's the GM diesel disaster of the 80s, second, diesels are still thought to be noisy, dirty and slow, third, cold-weather starting is a concern in good parts of the country.

If the diesel Cruze actually earns a following, Ford and others could follow. My expectation is that the diesel Cruze will be a low-volume, niche car and while more diesels will be sold it'll be a very gradual increase.

 

[DrDusty86]

It made no reference to the type of gallon. It said just MPG. I know they sell the oil burner Cruze. It ONLY comes with an auto, so if doesn't make my list of next car canidates

 

[JOD]

Keep in mind two things: Euro 6 standards which go into effect in 2014 are almost identical to EPA NoX levels. Supposedly, the Focus diesel meets the new standard, but I haven't seen the exact levels; also noX is a per-fleet requirement. They'd have to sell a lot of diesels to be above the fleet average.

When you think about it, bringing in diesel is a pretty big gamble and commitment. I wish they would, just like I wish they'd bring in wagons. But particularly w/diesels it's not just bringing in more cars, it's bringing in a lot more parts to service them, new training for techs, etc. etc, and the economy of scale involved in selling something that sells in smaller numbers. While I'd love to see it, I can also see why they're gun shy on the whole diesel thing, which is banking on people paying 3K more for the same car. People are pretty short-sited, so getting them to look past the purchase price could be tough.

 

[javacontour]

I think we are not the typical automotive consumer.

Mazda has tried wagons from time to time. We had the 6 wagon here before. I don't think it sold well. The typical car buyer would rather have an SUV or minivan than a wagon.

Ditto for diesel for the reasons mentioned.

Add in, how many want to get dirty refueling a diesel while wearing a suit or dress.

Most diesel pumps, even those found outside truck stops are pretty grungy. So you are walking through diesel fuel to refuel your car and that oily fuel on your shoes ends up on your floor mats and you smell it all the time.

I had a diesel car back in the 90's and while I could stomach the fuel stop, the typical car owner who can't be bothered to check the oil probably doesn't want to get grungy with the typical diesel fuel island.

 

[DrDusty86]

Java, in central Texas the unleaded pumps are far dirtier than the diesel pumps.


New diesels are ANYTHING but noisy and slow. Heck My 03' Powerstroke Superduty stock would eat up the top gas motor in a drag race. I know I have done it in my younger days.
Tuning: I got over 100RWHP/180Ft/lbs and never got my hands dirty, or even popped the hood. Show me a gas rig that could do the same on.
The general public lacks basic math skills saying oh diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline. You get on average 30% better fuel milage with a diesel. A diesel helps offset the initial cost when you go to sell it. Torque down low compared to a similarly sized gasser is WAY better. This means you don't need to rev the heck out of a small diesel like you would a gas motor to get power. It is this fact that makes the diesel feel MUCH stronger the the horse power ratings suggest. Look at the VW TDI 140hp, it moves the 3300lb car well whereas a 140hp gasoline car weighing 3300lbs would be working HARD to just be acceptable under the same conditions. I drove a MKIV jetta with a 1.8T 5spd and it needed to stay above 4k RPMs to have ANY power but an 06 Jetta TDI I didn't need to rev it past 2500RPMs under the same conditions.
The 1.8T was 150hp and the TDI was 140hp, both manuals. This is as close as I could get to comparing the 2.It may not work for some of you guys but it's what I've got.

 

[javacontour]

Perhaps. Yet the nature of gasoline and diesel fuel makes a diesel spill at fuel island a messier affair at most self-serve c-store fuel stops.

Gasoline evaporates. Diesel leaves an oily residue.

I'm not anti-diesel. I am simply explaining why the typical motorist will not choose diesel over gasoline.

If the math supports it, go diesel. Most folks don't keep their cars long enough to make it pay. Some of that is due to the upfront costs of diesel cars and some due to the short amount of time the typical new car buyer keeps his car.

Keep in mind, the average car buyer is shopping for a payment. Anything that raises the monthly payment gets in the way of choosing that car.

If everything else is the same, equipment wise, is the payment buyer going to choose the more expensive up-front diesel or the gasser that gets them in under the payment target?

The typical soccer mom or suburban dad will choose the gas option.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
I'm pretty sure it all has to do with the stupid EPA requirements on diesels. I bet money that the Euro versions don't have a device that meters urine into the exhaust.

Yes they do have blue stuff. I think the truth may be the fact that companies here in the US at the prodding of the current administration invested heavily in Hybrids and electrics.
The last thing in the world they want is some little diesel that out performs the hybrid by a long shot and gets better fuel economy sitting right next to it for less money.

 

[DrDusty86]

well said Trav, I think you nailed it

 

[javacontour]

That may be part of the issue. But diesels have been offered here before and don't go over well with the typical motorist unless the circumstances make them more appealing.

It's not any one factor, but a collection of the factors mentioned above that prevents diesel automobiles from gaining traction in the US marketplace.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
I'm pretty sure it all has to do with the stupid EPA requirements on diesels. I bet money that the Euro versions don't have a device that meters urine into the exhaust.

Yes they do have blue stuff. I think the truth may be the fact that companies here in the US at the prodding of the current administration invested heavily in Hybrids and electrics.
The last thing in the world they want is some little diesel that out performs the hybrid by a long shot and gets better fuel economy sitting right next to it for less money.

 

[Bandito440]

Subaru rotates excuses. No interest, emissions too complicated, fuel too costly. I wonder what their real reason is.

I sure would like a diesel Forester though.

 

[Roadkingnc]

It will come, they are coming out with 8 speed transmissions because others are making them. If the cruz is a success everybody will be slinging diesel cars to get a piece of the action

 

[fdcg27]

Outside of Mercedes cars of the late 'seventies and early 'eighties, when a majority of the Benzes sold in this country were diesels, diesels have always been niche market cars.
Many makers offered diesel engines in some of their cars during the 'eighties aside from Mercedes, including GM, Ford, BMW, Toyota, Nissan (then called Datsun here), Isuzu, Mazda and, of course, Peugeot.
Mercedes used to price its diesels below its equivalent gas models, the rationale being that the diesel was a less desirable car.
A lot of us gearheads here would like to own one, and many of us (including me) have.
Most mainstream buyers don't see the payoff for the higher initial cost, as well as the ongoing strangeness.
Most of those who've had diesels liked them, as I did.
Was that because the diesel was all that wonderful, or was it because they, and I, appreciated the unique qualities of the engine?
Fuel economy in actual use isn't all that wonderful as compared to a spark ignition car of similar output, either, and the old advantage of using a cheaper fuel went away years ago. Diesel is now always more expensive than gasoline.

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

The general public lacks basic math skills saying oh diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline.


$4.51 > $3.89.

Rebuttals are accepted and, of course, show your work.....

In the Northeast there is no benefit to owning a diesel for most people. Fuel is can be up to 75 cents more per gallon and last I checked no one is giving the engine away as a free upgrade.

It may make $ sense for some, but for most, it doesn't.

 

[DrDusty86]

Gifts,
$4.51/55MPG= $.082 per mile for the diesel. Gas = 3.89/40MPG=$.09725 per mile.
Gas 100k miles= $9,725
Diesel 100k miles= $8,200.
The diesel saved over $1500 in fuel costs over the first 100k miles.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

The general public lacks basic math skills saying oh diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline.


$4.51 > $3.89.

Rebuttals are accepted and, of course, show your work.....

.


Really? I've been seeing diesel for $3.59 (bought some last weekend), and PUG is around $3.74/gal.

So while not necessarily cheaper than RUG ($3.49), it's getting into the zone of near parity. Plus around here at least at non-truckstops, diesel is the same price for cash and credit, while gas is 10c higher using credit, which cuts into that cost delta. My cc always gives me 5% back on gas/diesel, so it makes a difference and draws the line closer.

 

[DrDusty86]

These are the prices near me. These are likely the wider spreads around. At the prices get closer the diesel just gets better in terms of cost ownership/fuel mileage

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
Gifts,
$4.51/55MPG= $.082 per mile for the diesel. Gas = 3.89/40MPG=$.09725 per mile.
Gas 100k miles= $9,725
Diesel 100k miles= $8,200.
The diesel saved over $1500 in fuel costs over the first 100k miles.


But cost thousands in the beginning to purchase, is more complex with extra emissions devices that WILL need to be replaced SOON after 100k miles in most apps.

Here reg unleaded is $3.59 and Diesel is $3.99. The smallest difference is right now. Come winter and its closer to a buck.


Until the new regs I've always stated a TD could be my next vehicle.

Now, no thank you.

PS: 154 TDIs in stock (out of 574 total inventory) at one VW dealership here in SLC. We have plenty of dealerships with all of them below MSRP...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
well said Trav, I think you nailed it


I'm a big proponent of diesels, but I disagree. We were seeing urea and other emissions stuff long before this administration was in office. And, joe public's desire to go for diesel was in the dumps long before 2008.

I think some of it is artificial too. Vw tdis sell like hotcakes. They could make more, I'll bet they could sell them. They could offer a passat wagon tdi and I'm
Sure it would sell. Even better - get the euro chrysler diesel minivan engine in the routan and I'll bet people would come. So why not? They can't keep tdis on the lots. Someplace I read that they are careful currently not to steal sales from the Jetta wagon tdi. Why? I'll bet they typically sell at msrp, and are made in Mexico but sold at the same price of those made in europe, so it is a massive profit versus selling passats made in chattanooga at higher cost basis. I'd love a passat tdi wagon.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: DrDusty86
These are the prices near me. These are likely the wider spreads around. At the prices get closer the diesel just gets better in terms of cost ownership/fuel mileage


Right. Around here the prices fall within pennies recently, once cc discounts and surcharges are considered.

Acquisition cost must be considered though, and one of the worst things is that the diesels are often in fancier trims, making it tough to have an apples to apples acquisition cost analysis.

IMO there is very little different in a DI gasser and diesel. Sensors? Check. Catalyst? Check. HPFP? Check. EGR? Check.

 

[Burt]

Look on Gasbuddy.com for richmond texas. I can buy diesel at the Citgo station for $3.45 and regular gas goes for $3.47. Sweet.