Did Dexron and ATF+4 Kiss and Make Up?

[DWC28]

Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Hello,
Does that help at all?


Yes, thanks.
It seems to me that where friction is concerned the basic requirements have not changed much since torque converter clutches came out. It is now more important that the friction properties last the normal drain interval, but if you drain more often you do not need more than DEXRON friction durability. I suggest that most transmission manufactures now use the DEXRON III level of friction modification. However since they all use different tests with different torques, speeds and materials, DEXRON III looks different in all of their tests. So if friction has not changed (big assumption) and you are not interested in fuel economy as much as you are in transmission durability (no low low viscosity), and you change fluid so oxidation inhibitors are renewed one fluid may replace dozens. Several years ago the SAE tried to standardize ATF tests but the OEMs could not agree on whose test to use and as the Germans said "German tests for German engines".

 

[Whitewolf]

The thing is that friction is at a minimum a function of the friction surface, the reaction surface, the lubricant, and the control system. Manufacturers are increasingly separate in their selection of options regarding thes items and therefore requirements of fluid to meet their selected options and thus fluid requirements have in many cases diverged.

 

[Ken2]

http://www.havoline.com/en-US/products/transmission-fluids/synthetic-multi-vehicle-dexron--vi--.html

This has a Dexron-VI license issued by GM. It does not have an ATF+4 license issued by FiatChrysler.

The additive makers produce the additive packages that are both approved by the transmission makers and different add packs that may meet some standards and get very close to others. I suspect the latter is true with this product. Or, Chevron didn't bother with the expense of the licensing process--it's all about marketing.

If you do the fluid change yourself, how would a dealer know that you didn't use an approved fluid? They're all red and oily. If no fluid change is required to maintain the warranty, you did it anyway, and something went wrong, just play dumb. It's easy; I have years of experience.

 

[Whitewolf]

There hasn't been a licence charge for DEXRON ATF approval since about 2006. I don't know about FCA.

 

[DWC28]

I remember when Ford and GM said they both had special materials and torques and break away requirements (GM did not run static breakaway) and you needed separate fluids. Than people started testing the same fluid in MERCON and DEXRON tests. Guess what; some fluids passed both. As I recall the MERCON fluid could not pass DEXRON. At that time about everyone was using either MERCON or DEXRON. I believe that today you could run one fluid in maybe twenty different testing regimes and pass all. However until someone pays up and does the testing or OEM do like the ILSAC folks with testing, no one knows for sure.

 

[dan0928]

Originally Posted By: dan0928
Everything I've heard on the Web and from mechanics I've talked to indicates that Dexron VI has no place in my Dodge Ram 3500 (545RFE) transmission and that, if mixed in with my ATF+4, it will lead to a premature failure. Chevron, however, is promoting Havoline Synthetic ATF Multi-Vehicle Dexron-VI, now called "Havoline Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF" to remove the term Dexron (per Chevron), as a "recommended" alternative to ATF+3 and ATF+4 in "late model" Chrysler transmissions. It is not an "approved" fluid, Chrysler has not approved its use. Chevron offers a VERY limited warranty on applications in Chrysler products where ATF+3 and ATF+4 are approved and by the time any damage is done, if you're even aware of the warranty, it will most likely have become void.

Have things changed? Is it now OK to use Dexron VI in my Dodge RAM 3500 trans?

My mechanic used it in a recent filter/fluid change and never informed me. I never would have approved the substitution. It seems that if my vehicle were still under warranty this would surely have voided it. Doesn't a mechanic have an obligation to get my approval before using an unapproved product in my vehicle?



Just thought I'd give an update (and another "thanks") to you all...

In September I took my complaint to the auto repair shop and demanded recovery of my out-of-pocket costs plus a remanufactured transmission (because of the damage that an incorrect trans filter and the introduction of Dexron VI would have caused). The owner effectively told me to go pound sand. So, next I filed a claim with the California Bureau of Automotive Repair accusing the shop of gross negligence bordering on fraud. A couple weeks later, the Bureau informed me that the shop had agreed to have my trans completely rebuilt by a 3rd party transmission shop at no cost to me. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when the Bureau representative met with the shop! Unfortunately the Bureau won't divulge that information.