DI intake valves CAN be cleaned with PEA?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Alext
Has anyone done a test with a DI engine that involves sustained high RPM driving to see if that cleans the valves in a DI engine?


Aside from a tear down, before and after how would a person check? A compression test, maybe? Those can be skewed pretty easily. Butt dino gets little to no respect around here, depending on whose butt it is. I'd love to know of a test that someone can easily and cheaply do at home to tell if an engine is performing better, that can keep the skeptics at bay. That would end a lot of the bickering around here for good!

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Heard about this on the radio a few days ago. Wonder if anyone else knows anything about it. They were discussing things like being discussed here... contaminates from PCV and how valves are not cleaned in DI compared to PI designs. I have no clue if this is what it claims, just asking. There are a bunch of products and videos at this site.

http://www.terraclean.net


The application instructions for TerraClean GDI intake Valve Cleaner mirror what some in the Mazdaspeed community are already doing- removing the intake, bringing a cylinder to TDC, filling the port with an aggressive cleaner, and finishing off with a brass gun cleaning wire brush or similar.

Others are going the walnut shell blasting route, only without the convenient port adapters that BMW uses on their media blasters...

 

[oldhp]

05319 CRC GDI IVD™ Intake Valve Cleaner

Just used this as directed on my wife's 2012 Equinox 2.4, 17,650 on it since bought new Feb 2012. Many, many short trips under 10 blocks, shut off, go back. Engine was getting a skip when started cold and just didn't seem as snappy as when new.
The dark gray smoke that came out of tail pipe was disturbing as I left the driveway, and engine was running like it had the choke pulled out...sluggish. Great I thought, screwed something up. But...as I drove it, it picked up power. Out to the interstate for 75MPH cruise. Came to stop, engine smooth as glass. It also has, without a doubt, MORE PEP!!! This stuff works!!! Will start using it every 5000'ish miles from now on.

 

[MolaKule]

Well, I hope you change your oil sometime soon.

 

[oldhp]

Tomorrow, after 100 mile round trip, with oil sample going to Blackstone labs. Changing to Mobil1 0W40 this time. Wife drove it and she noticed it is more snappy too!

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Alext
Has anyone done a test with a DI engine that involves sustained high RPM driving to see if that cleans the valves in a DI engine?


VW GTI MKV

Before picture:

After 20 minutes of 4500+ RPMs, low load:

 

[SteveSRT8]

OK, so the first pic in on the car and the second is torn down? That sort of dilutes the comparison.

Add to that the difference seems relatively minor...

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
OK, so the first pic in on the car and the second is torn down? That sort of dilutes the comparison.

Add to that the difference seems relatively minor...


The difference is significant and quite clear. the reason the 2nd picture is of it disassembled is because the owner didn't expect there to be a difference. He took the picture when he removed it and saw the huge difference. It was the exact same intake valve FYI.

The first pic was from a boroscope because it was just an investigation and there was no intention of cleaning it at that point.

 

[demarpaint]

After all I've read, heard, and discussed with professionals in the field, call me a skeptic.

How many miles and under what kind of driving conditions did it take to build up that accumulation in the picture?

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
After all I've read, heard, and discussed with professionals in the field, call me a skeptic.

How many miles and under what kind of driving conditions did it take to build up that accumulation in the picture?


The first pic was around 38k miles of normal driving according to the owner.

 

[demarpaint]

Thanks. ^^

 

[BearZDefect]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
The first pic was around 38k miles of normal driving according to the owner.

Which is the same mileage it took for the VCM on a 2012 Honda Odyssey of someone I know well to malfunction, despite >50% highway driving and no GDI.

 

[Alext]

Wow thanks for the before and after pictures. That is actually a significant difference!

 

[Alext]

Is the load amount important?

 

[97tbird]

Originally Posted By: brandini
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Now the only way for fuel additives to affect the valve deposits, is for the engine to be operated in 'atkinson' mode, where injection occurs during the intake stroke and intake port reversion is intended.
Mazda does this on the new SkyActiv engines in addition to keeping the intake valves hotter to prevent deposits from forming. This also operates in conjunction with the 'passive egr' functions some vehicles have.

So... This means I SHOULD use Techron (or similar) in the gas tank on our 2014 SkyActiv Mazda6 ?
I guess there's no harm in trying right?
(Car has 35k miles now, and sees almost 90% hwy driving at speeds of 60-65 and is a DD, and uses Top Tier gas, Shell and BP)

So far, I have not used any FI cleaners on this car, due to the general belief that it doesn't do anything for DI engines.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: crw
It's amazing how many people still don't understand the issue of direct injection vs. legacy fuel injection and the cleaning of valves.


I know additives have little effect on valve deposits on DI engines(although Redline does think otherwise). Still, I have to believe that a percentage of the Techron additives are surviving the combustion process and having a beneficial effect on the EGR system, as the replaced OEM EGR valve has not clogged in 80k miles; the original was DOA before 60k.


This is accurate. PEA manages to survive the combustion process and is able to provide some cleaning. I would imagine that if you use the complete fuel system cleaner version with higher concentrations every 3000 miles you might keep most of the deposits at bay.


Very promising to say the least.

 

[wrf01a]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Vikas
A question to resident GDI experts; since the fuel is injected on the intake stroke, why does the fuel needs to be at 2000 psi? Isn't there is a negative pressure (aka vacuum) in the cylinder during the intake stroke?

Another question:- CRC generally don't make snake oil type products but is it really possible to melt the carbon deposit on the back of the valve by spraying a strong solution? Why doesn't they conduct an experiment to show cleaning off the carbon-ed up valve on camera?


DI engines typically have a stratified burn mode (ultra lean) where the ignition can occur during compression stroke. Not too mention the injector has to be able to withstand the pressures of combustion so that air/fuel doesn't get pushed into the injector opening and sent up stream into the fuel line.


There is a little bit of false information here that really needs to be fixed. Not all DI engines are the same and I will reference Hyundai because I am familiar with this engine. The Super High Pressure is needed because the fuel is injected just before or during the Power Stroke, NOT the intake stroke in most DI Engines.

In the Hyundai Theta II, The fuel injection is split into two phases. In the first phase, the pilot injection occurs on the compression stroke, milliseconds before ignition. The main injection phase occurs after ignition, during the piston’s descent, more fuel is injected and ignited as necessary. In the Hyundai fuel is injected after the intake valve is closed.

In the Hyundai, 2170 PSI is needed because fuel is injected during the Compression Stroke and the Power Stroke.

Hyundai recommends top tier gas or Hyundai Fuel Injection Cleaner because the location of the injector. The main reason for this is to keep the injectors clean.

As far as deposits on the intake valve, most manufactures have fixed that problem. That problem has only Plagued certain models. VW, Audi and Lexus just to name a few.

For more information please read

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

Scroll down to the part titled All Engines Not Designed Equally and read the first four paragraphs for some accurate information.

Lets put a stop to all this inaccurate information.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: wrf01a
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Vikas
A question to resident GDI experts; since the fuel is injected on the intake stroke, why does the fuel needs to be at 2000 psi? Isn't there is a negative pressure (aka vacuum) in the cylinder during the intake stroke?

Another question:- CRC generally don't make snake oil type products but is it really possible to melt the carbon deposit on the back of the valve by spraying a strong solution? Why doesn't they conduct an experiment to show cleaning off the carbon-ed up valve on camera?


DI engines typically have a stratified burn mode (ultra lean) where the ignition can occur during compression stroke. Not too mention the injector has to be able to withstand the pressures of combustion so that air/fuel doesn't get pushed into the injector opening and sent up stream into the fuel line.


There is a little bit of false information here that really needs to be fixed. Not all DI engines are the same and I will reference Hyundai because I am familiar with this engine. The Super High Pressure is needed because the fuel is injected just before or during the Power Stroke, NOT the intake stroke in most DI Engines.

In the Hyundai Theta II, The fuel injection is split into two phases. In the first phase, the pilot injection occurs on the compression stroke, milliseconds before ignition. The main injection phase occurs after ignition, during the piston’s descent, more fuel is injected and ignited as necessary. In the Hyundai fuel is injected after the intake valve is closed.

In the Hyundai, 2170 PSI is needed because fuel is injected during the Compression Stroke and the Power Stroke.

Hyundai recommends top tier gas or Hyundai Fuel Injection Cleaner because the location of the injector. The main reason for this is to keep the injectors clean.

As far as deposits on the intake valve, most manufactures have fixed that problem. That problem has only Plagued certain models. VW, Audi and Lexus just to name a few.

For more information please read

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2011/06/direct-injection-fouls-some-early-adopters.html

Scroll down to the part titled All Engines Not Designed Equally and read the first four paragraphs for some accurate information.

Lets put a stop to all this inaccurate information.



Excellent information, wrf01a. Thank you for sharing.

 

[SteveSRT8]

multiple injection events are not unusual, as 8 or more occur in some engines.

Multiple spark events as well.

Very platform specific, as noted above they all do things a bit differently.

And despite all the hoopla the pics above are not impressing me at all. The second pic shows a valve that I certainly would call fouled in any engine I tore down...

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
multiple injection events are not unusual, as 8 or more occur in some engines.

Multiple spark events as well.

Very platform specific, as noted above they all do things a bit differently.

And despite all the hoopla the pics above are not impressing me at all. The second pic shows a valve that I certainly would call fouled in any engine I tore down...


It was one 20min run after 40k miles. Imagine what doing that every 5k miles or even 10k miles could do.