can someone enlighten me on this... i've read about someone talking about pure and hybrid esters. apparently only motul and fuch offer "pure" ester based oil. redline is "hybrid" ester which is a waste of time. so how does esters actually function? how about di-ester and polyolester? really curious to know but couldn't seem to be able to google out much useful info...
di-ester, polyolester, "pure" and "hybrid" esters?
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Pure and hybrid? These terms are unscientific and aren’t exactly specific.
Here is a basic definition in terms of organic chemistry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester
Of course there are many types of esters. Esters used for lubrication are very stable in relation to temperature and pressure, and have a weak polar affinity for metals.
Are you saying some oils are only ester based and some are mixed with PAO’s (for example)?
Redline is a “waste of time”? Where did you get that?
Here is a basic definition in terms of organic chemistry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester
Of course there are many types of esters. Esters used for lubrication are very stable in relation to temperature and pressure, and have a weak polar affinity for metals.
Are you saying some oils are only ester based and some are mixed with PAO’s (for example)?
Redline is a “waste of time”? Where did you get that?
i did have a look at the wiki page earlier but probably it doesn't really give me the kind of answer i'd like to know.
hmm.. probably you are right. perhaps the guy is talking about solely ester based base stock and ester + PAO mixture. so is redline such a mixture?
"waste of time" is quoted from the person whom i read the comments from. his rational is that being a "hybrid", might as well use good quality PAO based oils which are supposedly cheaper too. hence the verdict of redline being a waste of time.
"Red Line's products are unique because they contain polyol ester base stocks, the only lubricants which can withstand the tremendous heat of modern jet engines."
From Redline's web site, It doesn't state how much ester is in their oil, it can be 1% or 90% but it is not stated, nor does the current Redline MSDS state the amount. I doubt its anywhere near what people believe it is as ester has to be offset by PAO to counter the seal shrink/swell problem. Just to clear up a misunderstanding, jet engine oil is less stressed than automotive motor oil. The normal operating temps for jet engine oil is 85c to 100C, and on most jet engines an inspection is required if operation is sustained with oil temps above 100c. The first jet engine I worked on used 10w conventional oil, later engines converted to synthetic (MIL-L-7808) for cold start operations more than high oil temps. Turbojet and Turboprop engines use special seals and o-rings that are not affected by the ester based oil.
From Redline's web site, It doesn't state how much ester is in their oil, it can be 1% or 90% but it is not stated, nor does the current Redline MSDS state the amount. I doubt its anywhere near what people believe it is as ester has to be offset by PAO to counter the seal shrink/swell problem. Just to clear up a misunderstanding, jet engine oil is less stressed than automotive motor oil. The normal operating temps for jet engine oil is 85c to 100C, and on most jet engines an inspection is required if operation is sustained with oil temps above 100c. The first jet engine I worked on used 10w conventional oil, later engines converted to synthetic (MIL-L-7808) for cold start operations more than high oil temps. Turbojet and Turboprop engines use special seals and o-rings that are not affected by the ester based oil.
Redline contains majority POE base stock and uses about 18% PAO for seal swell. They are one of the few companies that are truly majority ester based. The others are primarily PAO, with small % ester base.
The advantage an oil like RL has is it's ability to withstand extreme high temps, keep the engine very clean and have inredible shear stability. Redline is overkill IMO unless you are racing and or have a turbo/mods.
The advantage an oil like RL has is it's ability to withstand extreme high temps, keep the engine very clean and have inredible shear stability. Redline is overkill IMO unless you are racing and or have a turbo/mods.
Buster, Where do you get your numbers from? Can you provide the source?
I'm with Bob 100%. People are always going on and on about how RL uses a POE base, suggesting that aside from its additive package, it's 100% POE. I highly doubt that this is the case, i don't think it contains nearly as much POE as many would like to think.
Bob, sxg, I've spoken with Dave and Cameron Evans several times and they will admit it has a small amount of PAO in it to offset seal swell. boxcartommie was where I got the exact figure of 18%. I don't know what the exact % is for sure, but I'm VERY confident Redline contains >50% POE. I get all my info. from the companies, not the internet. (usually)
That is what is nice about Redline oil they value their customers .Do they still have their 800 number?
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation is open for
business Monday through Friday, 8am to 5pm PST.
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation
6100 Egret Court
Benicia, CA 94510
PHONE: (707) 745-6100 or (800) 624-7958
FAX: (707) 745-3214
MolaKule
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Go down to the Technology of Lubricants and additves, there are at least three topics there on esters.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=1#Post721643
There simple and "complex" esters available for formulation, including bio-derived esters as well.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=1#Post721643
There simple and "complex" esters available for formulation, including bio-derived esters as well.
hmm... ok probably the main itch in me.... what are the main difference between RL and motul (eg 300V)in terms of the basestock, ester or how much ester, and whether it's whatever pure or hybrid. is there really such a thing as double ester?
Comment by our local residential oil expert on his take on Redline.
hybrids means the base oil is not pure ester, but pure ester + grp 4 base oil, clearer? and Redline did not state explicity their oil is pure ester type, unlike Fuch and Motul. Shogun racing oil also use the same technique in their marketing.
from Redline website itself:
"Red Line lubricants are unique because they contain PE Polyol Ester base stocks."
and another sentence
"The synthetic base stocks have a natural multigrade property, which means that large amounts of unstable polymeric thickeners."
Synthetic base is also used commonly to describe group 4 base oil.
only Fuch and Motul say explicitly their oils are 100% ester-based and not just contain ester base oil. If Redline oil is really 100% ester-based, they would have advertise big big already mah, since 100% ester-based can really fetch a premium.
btw, even scientists when writing their journal papers, when they come across something new, they also coin a new term themselves.
so to suit you, can i name the "hybrid" oils, Group 4.x oil, where x can be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, depending the proportional of ester oil and group 4 oil?
do you have any idea why ester based are used as engine oil? through electrostatic attraction, the oil film formed is even more resistant to shearing than normal oil. Read the following: http://www.motul.com.sg/fact_sheets/estel_oil.html
the ester based oil are so good that they are grouped separately as Group 5 engine oil, and by mixing in Group 4 oil, creating a "hybrid", basically the ester molecules cannot do their work effectively, they got to fight with the normal oil molecules to get to the metal surfaces.
and ester-based oil are expensive to manufacture and rare, worldwide stock shortage and even got hybrids, the manufacturer pour in a bit of ester-based and say it contain ester liao.
hybrids means the base oil is not pure ester, but pure ester + grp 4 base oil, clearer? and Redline did not state explicity their oil is pure ester type, unlike Fuch and Motul. Shogun racing oil also use the same technique in their marketing.
from Redline website itself:
"Red Line lubricants are unique because they contain PE Polyol Ester base stocks."
and another sentence
"The synthetic base stocks have a natural multigrade property, which means that large amounts of unstable polymeric thickeners."
Synthetic base is also used commonly to describe group 4 base oil.
only Fuch and Motul say explicitly their oils are 100% ester-based and not just contain ester base oil. If Redline oil is really 100% ester-based, they would have advertise big big already mah, since 100% ester-based can really fetch a premium.
btw, even scientists when writing their journal papers, when they come across something new, they also coin a new term themselves.
so to suit you, can i name the "hybrid" oils, Group 4.x oil, where x can be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, depending the proportional of ester oil and group 4 oil?
do you have any idea why ester based are used as engine oil? through electrostatic attraction, the oil film formed is even more resistant to shearing than normal oil. Read the following: http://www.motul.com.sg/fact_sheets/estel_oil.html
the ester based oil are so good that they are grouped separately as Group 5 engine oil, and by mixing in Group 4 oil, creating a "hybrid", basically the ester molecules cannot do their work effectively, they got to fight with the normal oil molecules to get to the metal surfaces.
and ester-based oil are expensive to manufacture and rare, worldwide stock shortage and even got hybrids, the manufacturer pour in a bit of ester-based and say it contain ester liao.
I think that guy is overly obsessed with esters and hasn't dug past marketing information and gotten into the real science of this stuff. The guy who posted above, MolaKule, has been involved deeply in the science of esters. Listen to what he can tell you, or rather what he has posted on this forum over the years. Another great source is Tom NJ who posted on this forum and works for Hatco Corporation.
dave at redline admits that redline is a hybrid ester oil because they use a "tad" of pao in their oils
One thing that I've noticed over the years is that many people assume that bc an oil is ester based or contains esters, it is therefore superior. I used to think this way. Not true. There are an infinite number of esters and some work better than others. Some companies use multiple esters in conjuction with pao's. It's not accurate to just focus solely on one additive or base oil. Amsoil uses various esters in there oils, some proprietary. They also use many base oils in each oil. It's more important to look at the complete package, rather then focus on a single base stock.
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