Correct. In a nutshell, that is the whole story.
Blender simply throws the recipe together. Afton, Infineum, Lubrizol, Oronite, etc. has already done the testing to confirm that the final receipt will pass.
dexos Test Registration Manual
- Thread starter ZeeOSix
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Blender simply throws the recipe together. Afton, Infineum, Lubrizol, Oronite, etc. has already done the testing to confirm that the final receipt will pass.
You called them a "small blender" ... so you should probably give the definition. Per the math using your about $0.25/gal added dexos cost, they'd have to sell 4 million gallons to rack up $1M dexos fees. And I'm betting if it's costing them $0.25/gal wholesale to have the dexos cert they are charging more than that extra per gallon to also make some profit on the dexos certification. Charge $0.50/qal (12.5 cents/qt) more and cover the added cost and also make an instant $1M more profit on 4M gallons sold.
What's the cost to have the API cert on the oil and bottle? What's the cost of having any other certs/license or "meets specs" on the oil and bottle due to testing, etc ... even if they don't charge any kind of flat license fees and/or royalties?
GM changed the fee structure way back in 2010. If it's different today, there's no info about it anywhere that I can find.
https://www.lubesngreases.com/lubereport/10_13/gm-switches-to-flat-fee-on-dexos/
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I would estimate them at being a 15-20 million gallon a year blender and bottler. Which is on the small scale of things.
A medium blender would probably be around 40-60 million gallons a year.
A large blending facility, Gordon terminal, P66 Savannah, Chevron Louisville, Mobil Paulsboro are all probably in the 100m range a year.
API is on the marketer side. Not the whole sale side.
So I pay $5500 a year, per license. Plus 0.008 cpg after 750,000 gallons.
Example, my house brand sells probably around 4 million gallons a year of PCEO, maybe a little more with HDEO. So I would pay $5,500 + $26,000 a year based on volume. And they come audit this yearly. It’s not on the wholesale price, because small marketers that barely sell any oil, would just pay the $5500.
^^^ Good info. Here's a question for you. If an oil seller simply put "Meets or exceeds dexos1 Gen 3" (for example) on the back of the bottle instead of paying for the official dexos license and logo used to show it's been certified, is GM going to come down on them to prove it or send a legal letter to them threatening a lawsuit of some kind for possible false advertising? If someone did do that, who's going to know in the consumer world if the oil really does meet dexos specs or if it's just an unvetted claim by the seller.
I wonder what Mercedes-Benz or BMW charge for their certs. I'm guessing it's not free.
Ah… now you’re getting the game.
No, “Dexos” is a trademark. They can only get you for false advertising or, trademark infringement if you use their trademark illegally.
“Meets or Exceeds” does not mean it is “Dexos certified” - thus, you do not get to use the trademark, as you have not gone through the formal process to be legally allowed to use their trademarks. This, is completely separate from any testing or such. As this is simply trademark usage.
That being said, there is no protection, either from a seller misleading by saying “meets or exceeds” and it doesn’t… meet or exceed.
You’re relying on the seller telling the truth. Ala, Amsoil, HPL, Redline, and other brands that are well known but don’t carry the certifications, but have good names and known good products.
Meanwhile you have Sammy’s Scammy Oil, that claims to meet and exceed Dexos 5 Gen 7. Must be better… right?
Basically, it’s a judgement game when it comes to meet or exceeds. Also “recommended for use” is another term that goes with the meets or exceeds. Transmission fluids are ones that love to do that. The universal transmission fluids that can somehow meet every spec from DM3 to ULV are great. I saw a service pro PDS that said it meets or exceeds Dexron 3, 6 and ULv all at once. News to me that you can have a high viscosity and an ultra low viscosity at the same time.
Bingo.
^^^ That corresponds with the info on the API license fees info in the snip-it below. But where's the disconnect between the approx $0.25/gal cost increase you speak of when it's a dexos licensed oil vs the API licenses fees in the snip-it below?
Is this extra $0.25/gal the difference in the cost of blending products and/or the processes used for dexos vs API/non-dexos oils - ie, the additive supplier wants more for their products if they are slated for "dexos" blending use (headache tax, lol)?
In post 40 you said: "But the additives are the same, whether non Dexos or Dexos" ... so the materials cost should be the same regardless of what they are used for, no? Where is this extra $0.25/gal coming from when the info below says the dexos license fee is $1,250 plus the $0.002/gal royalty for sales over 1M gallons? Just trying to get an apples-to-apples cost comparison between the API and dexos license fees info. The extra cost of $0.25/gal isn't reflected in the dexos license fee info below.
This info was also shown in the link in post 42.
Because there’s not a royalty per gallon. The blenders are charged on how much they make a year and put into different brackets. I’ve said that several times now.
Where ever you’re pulling that from is old. And it’s already been posted that they moved away from the per gallon royalty.
More importantly since we are going in circles again, what’s your point?
I can share a text message with an admin if you want. Along with who they are. They can verify it.
The CPG, of about 25, is their bracket of what they pay to GM. If they move up to the next bracket, it might go down. If they move down a bracket. It might go up.
The blends are the same. You’re just repeating yourself. So either, ask a new question. Or I’m out.
Yes, that dexos license fee info is pretty old, and I mentioned along the line that searching for more current info didn't find anything - so no way to know any details on how they changed the license fees breakdown to the current. If the $0.25/gal is not an actual "royalty" per gallon sold, then what's it actually based on? If it's based on brackets/tiers of gallons sold, then it sounds like some kind of royalty fee structure. Asking for more info for clarification isn't "going in circles". If you want to find out more details and share it, then please do ... I'm probably not the only one that would like more details on the current dexos licensing fees breakdown.
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Keyword is "right." But even with lesser base oil blends, I assume that even the "cheapest/minimum" GF-7 oil should be fairly close to D1G3 performance, correct?
That is my current belief, yes. Assuming you’re comparing a full synthetic vs a full synthetic. Not a syn blend vs full synthetic.
Unless you’re comparing Syn blend D1G3 vs Syn Blend non D1G3. Which, is very possible now with the GF7 additives. And quite a few companies are licensing a non full synthetic D1G3.
The interesting thing that I’ve recently heard is D1G4 will be delayed probably until 2028, possibly beyond that. Theres no current frame work for D1G3 to improve beyond GF7 yet. Unlike GF6 where D1G3 came out “around” the same time. And D1G2 that beat SN+ to the punch by alot.
What if it was a synthetic blend GF-7 with mostly EHC base stocks?
Vs what full synthetic?
Don’t get me wrong. Synthetic blends are still, absolutely the majority of the PCEO market now. They’re honestly fine, otherwise we would see probably 75% of all cars made in the last 30 years fall over dead.
I’m just saying for heads up “general” comparison sake. You can make a really, really good synthetic blend that will outperform cheap full synthetics. It’s just the matrix of what you want, ya know? Syn blends are mostly of the time designed to be cheap. I don’t think I’ve ever sold a gallon of the new super high performance Kendall synthetic blend they decided to cook up for some unknown reason. Nor the Gulf super high performance synthetic blend.
The original premise of my question was more along the lines of.....Supertech "syn blend" 5W30 for $17 versus Supertech "full syn licensed Dexos" for $19. With the launch of GF-7, is there even much of a difference between those two?
I would say yes. Particularly because I know the costs of both of those products and some of the more specifics. Supertech full synthetic is actually pretty good for the money. And for say, $2 more, it’s worth it.
Where as their syn blend is very much a price fighter. The nicest way I can put it.
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