dexos Test Registration Manual

[ZeeOSix]

The main point being made in this thread is that obtaining a dexos certification/license is a pretty robust vetting of the oil's formulation and performance. An oil that meets dexos specs is very much scrutinized for the correct formulation and actual performance in fired test engines. Submitters just can't throw a formulation together and expect a dexos license to be granted without going trough all the required testing listed in Table II shown in post #1. All the blending is done (for consumer sale) based on the formulation used to achieve the dexos certification after the license is achieved, based on meeting all the dexos specs involved.

 

[Foxtrot08]

The main point being made in this thread is that obtaining a dexos certification/license is a pretty robust vetting of the oil's performance. An oil that meets dexos specs is very much scrutinized for the correct formulation and actual performance in fired test engines. Submitters just can't throw a formulation together and expect a dexos license to be granted without going trough all the required testing listed in Table II shown in post #1.

Yes, you absolutely can. You can buy a pre-canned additive, mix it with the right base oils. And it will pass D1G3 test every day of the week.

The additive companies did all this work and testing, significantly before the D1G3 specs were even written.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes, you absolutely can. You can buy a pre-canned additive, mix it with the right base oils. And it will pass D1G3 test every day of the week.

The additive companies did all this work and testing, significantly before the D1G3 specs were even written.

Still can't license it with GM and use the dexos logo unless all the testing is done per Table II. Just can't mix it up and get the dexos license. Maybe so if you can provide all the test data from that exact formula already being tested per the test requirements, and GM accepts that as proof it meets all the specs. It's pretty clear that GM wants very controlled tests and proof it was all done in certified laboratories.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Still can't license it with GM and use the dexos logo unless all the testing is done per Table II. Just can't mix it up and get the dexos license. Maybe so if you can provide all the test data from that exact formula already being tested per the test requirements, and GM accepts that as proof it meets all the specs.

Public info here: https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/ready-for-the-future-ilsac-gf-7-solutions-from-chevron-oronite/

“ Claim ILSAC GF-7 on the dexos®1 Gen 3 approved final formulations.”

I can go buy an Oronite additive package, follow their instructions for blending. Pay the licensing fee. And be done.

Or don’t pay the licensing fee. And sell a full synthetic.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Public info here: https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/ready-for-the-future-ilsac-gf-7-solutions-from-chevron-oronite/

“ Claim ILSAC GF-7 on the dexos®1 Gen 3 approved final formulations.”

I can go buy an Oronite additive package, follow their instructions for blending. Pay the licensing fee. And be done.

Or don’t pay the licensing fee. And sell a full synthetic.

So who's done all the required testing shown in Table II in this case ... Oronite? If so, then I'd expect all their extra testing costs to meet the dexos spec is reflected in the cost of their additive package. If they have done all the testing to satisfy GM's licensing requirements show in this thread, then it's way more involved then a blender throwing the recipe together. That's what you may see ... but that's not the whole story.

 

[Foxtrot08]

So who's done all the required testing shown in Table II in this case ... Oronite? If so, then I'd expect all their extra testing costs to meet the dexos spec is reflected in the cost of their additive package. If they have done all the testing to satisfy GM's licensing requirements show in this thread, then it's way more involved then a blender throwing the recipe together. That's what you may see ... but that's not the whole story.

It’s the whole story.

If you want to keep thinking it’s more complicated, well, I can’t stop you. But it’s literally not that complicated.

A blender is going to cut a deal with an additive house - Afton / Oronite / Lubrizol / Infineum, whomever. For X amount of gallons of additives. Theyre going to cut a deal with a base oil supplier for Y amount of gallons of base oils. So that they get discounts on large volumes.

They’re going to go to oil marketers or smaller regional brands. And say hey, I can make this product for you. It’s going to be X.XX for Dexos 1 Gen 3 GF7. Or it’s going to be Y.YY if you only want GF7. The difference in price is the GM fee(s) and the added headache fee.

The blender is going to pay the fee, submit the 1 gallon sample for finger printing, wait the 2-3 weeks for approval. And then list the regional brand as a sub brand of theirs.

Done.

All the R&D and everything like that is baked into the additive costs, yes. But you’re dividing that out over syn blends, full synthetics and Dexos approved products. Not just GM products. As those same additives will be used in everything. As they don’t want 50 different SKUs, When 3 will work.

 

[ZeeOSix]

A blender is going to cut a deal with an additive house - Afton / Oronite / Lubrizol / Infineum, whomever. For X amount of gallons of additives. Theyre going to cut a deal with a base oil supplier for Y amount of gallons of base oils. So that they get discounts on large volumes.

They’re going to go to oil marketers or smaller regional brands. And say hey, I can make this product for you. It’s going to be X.XX for Dexos 1 Gen 3 GF7. Or it’s going to be Y.YY if you only want GF7. The difference in price is the GM fee(s) and the added headache fee.

So who's done all the required testing per Table II and submitted all the test data to GM for review to achieve the dexos certification/license? Someone has to test the final formulation to the required test requirements laid out to be dexos licensed. The "Test Registration Manual" wouldn't call out all those requirements if it could all be short circuited like you've describe before it's been reviewed to meet the required test specs with supporting data. Someone has to have tested per the Test Registration Manual requirements somewhere along the line before it's ever blended, bottled and put on the shelves.

 

[Foxtrot08]

So who's done all the required testing per Table II and submitted all the test data to GM for review to achieve the dexos certification/license? Someone has to test the final formulation to the required test requirements laid out to be dexos licensed. The "Test Registration Manual" wouldn't call out all those requirements if it could all be short circuited like you've describe. Someone has to have tested per the Test Registration Manual requirements somewhere along the line.

Already all done when you buy the additive. Thus the Oronite link I posted above. Thus the Lubrizol additive I posted before that.


If you think GM has the time to test every single brand’s “formulation” out there… lol. You’d never get oil. The cost would be absolutely hilariously high as well.

As long as you follow the blending instructions, it’s certified, is the TL;DR.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Already all done when you buy the additive.

If you think GM has the time to test every single brand’s “formulation” out there… lol. You’d never get oil. The cost would be absolutely hilariously high as well.

As long as you follow the blending instructions, it’s certified, is the TL;DR.

It was already clarified that GM doesn't do any testing as outlined in the Test Registration Manual - nobody claimed they did the testing. GM does do Quality Audit field checks, and probably why they want the final formulation "fingerprint" sample.

From the link in post #20.

 

[Foxtrot08]

It was already clarified that GM doesn't do any testing as outlined in the Test Registration Manual - nobody claimed they did the testing. GM does do Quality Audit field checks, and probably why they want the final formulation "fingerprint" sample.

View attachment 246507

Yes. I understand that.


But do you think every, single, brand that has the D1G3 has paid millions of dollars to have that testing done for their brand?

The turbo charger test alone - 17299 iirc - takes about ~300-350 hours to complete. And requires a GM registered test stand. A single cycle on that one test costs over 500k.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Yes. I understand that.

But do you think every, single, brand that has the D1G3 has paid millions of dollars to have that testing done for their brand?

The turbo charger test alone - 17299 iirc - takes about ~300-350 hours to complete. And requires a GM registered test stand. A single cycle on that one test costs over 500k.

Never claimed or thought every brand seller does all the testing - but someone does to meet the licensing requirements. Obviously Walmart with their SuperTech brand and many other branded oils like that wouldn't, nor others in that same rebranding boat. But maybe some brand sellers like Valvoline who have some full blow test facilities do some of the required testing. Just wanted clarification on who does the required testing before the blender does their thing.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Never claimed or thought every brand seller does the testing - obviously Walmart with their SuperTech brand wouldn't, nor others in that boat. But maybe some do brand sellers like Valvoline who have some full blow test facilities do some of the required testing. Just wanted clarification on who does the required testing before the blender does their thing.

Additive companies. As I described.

All the majors (outside of Chevron) have limited engine testing. They’ll do field testing and some engine testing in house. But to have full on GM (and other brand) tests stands is limited to the additive manufacturers.

I say outside of Chevron because they’re the last vertically integrated company. That has their own in house additive manufacturing, testing and R&D departments globally. So they have all those fun toys.

 

[Foxtrot08]

One blender I spoke to this morning, because I was curious for academic reasons, stated their annual Dexos licensing fees are over $1m per year.

And they’re a small blender. It’s the owners speculation that GM takes in ~150-175 million a year off their licensing fees and royalties.

 

[oil pan 4]

Yes, you absolutely can. You can buy a pre-canned additive, mix it with the right base oils. And it will pass D1G3 test every day of the week.

The additive companies did all this work and testing, significantly before the D1G3 specs were even written.

I'll take a straight 30wt with euro diesel levels of detergent and a healthy anti wear package.

 

[oil pan 4]

One blender I spoke to this morning, because I was curious for academic reasons, stated their annual Dexos licensing fees are over $1m per year.

And they’re a small blender. It’s the owners speculation that GM takes in ~150-175 million a year off their licensing fees and royalties.

I thought they didn't do the 1 cent to 5 gallons royalty any more?

 

[Foxtrot08]

I thought they didn't do the 1 cent to 5 gallons royalty any more?

They don’t. It depends on how many gallons you blend. And then you get moved into different brackets accordingly.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I'll take a straight 30wt with euro diesel levels of detergent and a healthy anti wear package.

I mean, they make that for marine applications.

But it’s sort of dumb for PCEO.

 

[kschachn]

I'll take a straight 30wt with euro diesel levels of detergent and a healthy anti wear package.

And you know it has “euro diesel levels of detergent” how, besides the Euro approval the oil may hold? Or are you determining this through a PDS or cheap spectrographic analysis?

Was that Euro approval free?

 

[ZeeOSix]

One blender I spoke to this morning, because I was curious for academic reasons, stated their annual Dexos licensing fees are over $1m per year.

And they’re a small blender. It’s the owners speculation that GM takes in ~150-175 million a year off their licensing fees and royalties.

Is that also including all costs associated for materials and blending associated to meet dexos? ... a trickle down from the additive company and all their testings, etc to obtain a dexos blended oil. If that "over $1m per year" dexos licensing fee is only from the $1250 flat fee plus a per gallon sold royalty then that small blender must be selling a lot of oil. If it's boiling down to around $0.25/gallon like you said in post 13, then $1M royalty would equate to 4M gallons. At one time GM was charging around $0.36/gallon, and even at that rate in order to rack up $1M in "dexos fees" they would have to sell 2.8M gallons. Would need more details to really understand the cost breakdown. Per info in post 7, it may cost more to achieve an API certification. Also in post 7, the latest info on the dexos license flat fee is $1250 and the small royalty of $0.002/gallon.

From an old thread discussing the cost to meet dexos ... could be different now. Seems like it's hard to get the real story.

N

Post in thread 'dexos fees: How Much is GM "Earning" ?'

Apr 24, 2015

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
How anybody can read that article and fail to interpret that the per gallon/per unit royalty fee structure is no longer in existence is amazing to me. A whole ton of new companies came online when they changed the fee structure from that major .36 per quart to the flat fee. Anybody who follows the Dexos list will be able to tell you that it increased exponentially within the past few years.


You and NMburb are confused. There still is a per-gallon fee! Its just a calculated fee based on market share, a close estimate...

• NMBurb02

 

[Foxtrot08]

Is that also including all costs associated for materials and blending associated to meet dexos? ... a trickle down from the additive company and all their testings, etc to obtain a dexos blended oil. If that "over $1m per year" dexos licensing fee is only from the $1250 flat fee plus a per gallon sold royalty then that small blender must be selling a lot of oil. If it's boiling down to around $0.25/gallon like you said in post 13, then $1M royalty would equate to 4M gallons. At one time GM was charging around $0.36/gallon, and even at that rate in order to rack up $1M in "dexos fees" they would have to sell 2.8M gallons. Would need more details to really understand the cost breakdown. Per info in post 7, it may cost more to achieve an API certification.

From an old thread discussing the cost to meet dexos ... could be different now. Seems like it's hard to get the real story.

N

Post in thread 'dexos fees: How Much is GM "Earning" ?'

Apr 24, 2015

Originally Posted By: fredfactory
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
How anybody can read that article and fail to interpret that the per gallon/per unit royalty fee structure is no longer in existence is amazing to me. A whole ton of new companies came online when they changed the fee structure from that major .36 per quart to the flat fee. Anybody who follows the Dexos list will be able to tell you that it increased exponentially within the past few years.


You and NMburb are confused. There still is a per-gallon fee! Its just a calculated fee based on market share, a close estimate...

• NMBurb02

As I said, it will break down to “about” 25 cents a gallon.

This is on top of any fees for samples and such. And if/any added material costs. But the additives are the same, whether non Dexos or Dexos.


Also.. how many gallons makes a small blender vs a large blender in your world?