DC says 2% fuel dilution in Hemi normal?

[JD Green]

As I have posted before, I have an 04 Dodge 4X4 QC with the Hemi engine. I have taken 3 reference oil samples using Pennzoil Conventional oil 5w30 with short drains prior to switching to synthetics. Those 3 samples have indicated a slight fuel dilution issue. Two of the first three samples came back with
I took this information to the Chrysler dealer and discussed it with them. They put my truck on the scope and NO error codes were found. The dealer contacted Chrysler Engineering and they said 2% fuel dilution is NORMAL. They did not indicate what would be abnormal. I find this hard to believe for different reasons. One, how does or what makes Chrysler think they know more about lubrication than people in the lubrication industry? If this is normal, why do we see many extended drain interval analysis results with
I have an Excel spread sheet going on my oil analysis that I wanted to gather more data about before posting, but now with this issue, I wouldn't mind posting it with this thread, as it would give you the rest of the details. Only problem is, I don't know how to attach the Excel spead sheet to this post. If anyone can instruct me on how to do it, I'll be glad to share the info. I will also re-post it as I get more data in the future.

It is times like this that make me wish I would of bought a Ford like I wanted, but at the time the Ford was 200 to 300 dollars more a month for roughly the same truck. I didn't want the Ford THAT bad.

Comments, suggestions, ideas welcomed.

 

[Amkeer]

So with this dilution rate how many miles on the oil? Were there extremely short trips at a frequent rate? Any oil consumption? I guess if they were very short intervals you probably wouldn't notice consumption.

Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil 1 Synthetic SS 5w30.
ODO 10500Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil 1 Synthetic SS 10w30.
ODO 91900 Miles.
http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer

 

[QuadDriver]

Id be inclined not to trust the analysis....

its an EFI motor, the fuel can only enter the motor via an injector, not a leaky carb when shut off.

for fuel to be in the oil, that means it cannot be burned in the combustion chamber. If this was the case, the OBD2 system would be bitchin up a storm, which you dont indicate has happened.

how would the automotive manus know more about oil than the makers? simple, the auto manus DRIVE the oil industry. IF it were not for auto manus and their concerns, we would still be at SA levels.

 

[VaderSS]

What is your driving circuit? Was there any water present?

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by QuadDriver:


its an EFI motor, the fuel can only enter the motor via an injector, not a leaky carb when shut off.

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Not entirely true. The injectors can leak, and a fuel pressure regulator can leak fuel into the vacuum line.

-T

 

[darkdan]

quote:

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Originally posted by QuadDriver:
Id be inclined not to trust the analysis....

its an EFI motor, the fuel can only enter the motor via an injector, not a leaky carb when shut off.

for fuel to be in the oil, that means it cannot be burned in the combustion chamber. If this was the case, the OBD2 system would be bitchin up a storm, which you dont indicate has happened.

how would the automotive manus know more about oil than the makers? simple, the auto manus DRIVE the oil industry. IF it were not for auto manus and their concerns, we would still be at SA levels.

---

And if the fuel is ending up in the oil and not the exhaust the o2 sensors aren't going to throw a fit.

 

[JD Green]

Sorry its taken me so long to reply, couldn't get on my computer at work today.

Amkeer: Mileage on 1st sample was 1900 miles, 2nd sample was 3000 miles and third sample was 3300 miles (with 9600 miles on turck).

Amkeer & VaderSS: My driving habits are roughly 30% city and 70% highway. FYI samples are taken at operating temperature, usually after a roughly 25 mile ride home, straight onto the ramps and sampled (with pump through dipstick tube).

All of these samples were done by Wear Check Canada. At the next sampling I'll send them another and also to OAI as a reference.

Sure wish I could attach my Excel file, it has all of the info. Any help?

To all thanks for comments.

 

[VaderSS]

Do a print screen and put it into a jpg.

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by darkdan:
And if the fuel is ending up in the oil and not the exhaust the o2 sensors aren't going to throw a fit.

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sure it will. thats the beauty of EFI systems, unlike a carb, which at all times has fuel coming out the jets or pilot circuit, the efi systems have 'fuel-less gaps' that actually are much longer than the time the injectors are spraying. (in rank order this is true for TBI, bank MFI or SFI, and this motor is SFI)

It is so precise that the ECM actually varies the mixture a couple times per second from rich to lean to get the 2 way catalyst to work.

If any injector failed such that it did not seat, it would yes, leak when off, but it would also leak when running and the ECM would not be able to vary a particular bank AND the crank angle word would indicate a cylinder balance problem.

IF any FPR failed, it would typically lower fuel pressure, which the ECM would detect in a number of ways, and if it was the type that could fail and let fuel in a vacuum line (and it aint) that would ALSO be detected as an overrich condition and would likely set a code for the MAF.

therefore, if the fuel numbers are correct (which I doubt) then all hydrocarbons have to enter as blowby....thats a lot of blowby. we are talking 'time to rebuild me amounts of blowby'

and I dunno what the dodge dealers are talking about, being a hemi (which it aint anyways) makes it no more prone to have fuel dilution

 

[Lost Pup]

I would do both a compression test and a leakdown test just to feel more comfortable at this point. The results might offer usefull info either way. I would also like to know what an acceptable fuel dilution level would be.

 

[Terry]

Anything over 0.5% fuel dilution in a modern engine ( especially a EFI ) is UNACCEPTABLE. Most labs use that < 2.0% level for most engines but it is cookie cutter oil analysis. Even Blackstone Labs uses that type level but ask my customers, I don't accept that!


The reason for it can be as simple as a restricted air filter. Something is wrong and the scanner may not find it.

Get the analysis results interpreted properly , what is the labs analyst saying about the continual dilution ?

Don't accept the ignorance driven answer from Chrysler , get it fixed. Use the analysis reports to make it happen. Sounds like a reasonable dealer they just need to see the "LIGHT"!

Terry

 

[BlazerLT]

Sounds like the rings have not seated yet.

BTW, stop using Pennzoil and use Castrol GTX or a proven conventional oil and see if the level goes down.

 

[ebaker]

I think some cars run very rich when cold to "light" or rapidly heat the catalyts. The rich mixture combined with increased clearances in a cool engine can cause the dilution. It should burn off thr next time the engine gets good and hot. Try your next oil analysis immediately after a run on the highway.

 

[Matt89]

quote:

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BTW, stop using Pennzoil and use Castrol GTX or a proven conventional oil and see if the level goes down.

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I guess Pennzoil's not proven yet.

 

[1 FMF]

aren't you supposed to be using 5w-20? there's your problem

if it's not faulty analysis, maybe bad valve seal? not sure how you would diagnose that.

does the 2004 hemi have the fuel economy mode where it shuts off cylinders when on the highway?

 

[mikep]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt89:

quote:

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BTW, stop using Pennzoil and use Castrol GTX or a proven conventional oil and see if the level goes down.

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I guess Pennzoil's not proven yet.

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Well ya know, ever since they stopped using that Pennsylvania wax, err...crude, they had to start over

.

 

[JD Green]

Update: I have about 2,000 Kms to go before I take my next sample(s). I will send multiple samples to different labs to take lab error out of the equation. I will also be taking a sample from a coworker's truck (same engine and roughly same mileage) to see if 2% IS normal? Based on these results, I will determine my next step.

ebaker: I make it standard practice to take my samples right after a roughly 25 mile drive.

1fmf: Both my filler cap and owners manual call for 5w30 in this application. Also the Hemis in the Ram pickups are NOT equipped with the "cylinder shut off" technology. I am also told that this technology will not be available in 2005 Rams either. My dealer attended a meeting where they were told this and the issue(s) were "towing".