Cruze Oil and Water Temperatures

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
What are the pros and cons of dropping a gear or two rather than trying to take that grade in 6th at WOT ?



The little 1.4T is an impressive engine. Because boost starts at 1800RPM, and max boost by 2000, it is more than capable of taking most hills in 6th. This little engine also guzzles fuel at higher engine RPMs, even more so than most other engins.

 

[Nick R]

That's nothin. Wish I had had a Scangauge for my MT Washington hill climb. I bet it was rather toasty by the summit.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: Rickey
Originally Posted By: jstutz
This stuff is cool but i think i will steer clear of all this as long as i can. I keep my vehicles for a long time and have to fix them as they break. When i see stuff like this that has so much computer controlled gadgetry and so many sensors, i cant help but think how much of a troubleshooting nightmare it will become.


I remember the same type comments when we switched from point fired ignition to solid state fired ignition.
I WAS one of the skeptics!!!

Diagnostics are actually much simpler now, the car will literally tell you what is broken...usually HeHe.
The expense of repair is what scares me.
And I do most of my own troubleshooting and repair.

Rickey.



Very true.

Granted, this is why I'm looking at an LS instead...

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: Rickey
Originally Posted By: jstutz
This stuff is cool but i think i will steer clear of all this as long as i can. I keep my vehicles for a long time and have to fix them as they break. When i see stuff like this that has so much computer controlled gadgetry and so many sensors, i cant help but think how much of a troubleshooting nightmare it will become.


I remember the same type comments when we switched from point fired ignition to solid state fired ignition.
I WAS one of the skeptics!!!

Diagnostics are actually much simpler now, the car will literally tell you what is broken...usually HeHe.
The expense of repair is what scares me.
And I do most of my own troubleshooting and repair.

Rickey.



Very true.

Granted, this is why I'm looking at an LS instead...


I've driven both, and I can tell you the 1.8 isn't nearly as nice to drive as the 1.4 is. It's not really any slower in a sprint, but it lacks the torque. Also, it has a timing belt that has to be changed for probably $1200. The 1.4T has no expensive required "maintenance" like that.

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Vikas
What are the pros and cons of dropping a gear or two rather than trying to take that grade in 6th at WOT ?



The little 1.4T is an impressive engine. Because boost starts at 1800RPM, and max boost by 2000, it is more than capable of taking most hills in 6th. This little engine also guzzles fuel at higher engine RPMs, even more so than most other engins.


Not to be argumentative: (Respectfully)

My scan gauge actually shows 3 PSI boost at @ 1100 RPM WOT.

By 1800 RPM it is almost fully spooled (>10 PSI)

Premium fuel makes a difference on spooling as well....it spools noticeably quicker with less KR on premium.
Throttle response is noticeably more crisp with higher octane.
No doubt on my part that the car meets spec on regular and exceeds spec on premium.

Rickey.

 

[urchin]

Originally Posted By: mike7139
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Cant wait til these are out of warranty and all this high tech stuff acts up....


That's what scares me as well.


I don't know if its high tech or not but my mom has a 2006 impala and she had the electronic throttle go on it, not once but twice and that was a few hundred bux to replace each time.


Exactly.

The replacement cable for a traditional throttle costs about 35$ for parts and you could easily do it yourself.

Technology is great, until it breaks.

 

[sciphi]

Originally Posted By: Rickey
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Vikas
What are the pros and cons of dropping a gear or two rather than trying to take that grade in 6th at WOT ?



The little 1.4T is an impressive engine. Because boost starts at 1800RPM, and max boost by 2000, it is more than capable of taking most hills in 6th. This little engine also guzzles fuel at higher engine RPMs, even more so than most other engins.


Not to be argumentative: (Respectfully)

My scan gauge actually shows 3 PSI boost at @ 1100 RPM WOT.

By 1800 RPM it is almost fully spooled (>10 PSI)

Premium fuel makes a difference on spooling as well....it spools noticeably quicker with less KR on premium.
Throttle response is noticeably more crisp with higher octane.
No doubt on my part that the car meets spec on regular and exceeds spec on premium.

Rickey.


Go figure, another Cruze owner who notices better response on premium. Some folks around here told me that it was impossible...

I routinely see 10 PSI, and up to 14 PSI on hard accelerations. Folks with tunes are reporting up to 25 PSI.

 

[meep]

there are some technologies that scare me.

but so does our dependence on foreign oil, and non-replenishable resources.

Alternator: raising the voltage increases the potential difference to the battery, which increases current to the battery. It's pulling down basically the surface charge during high-load conditions, then replenishing with a ~quasi-calculated bulk charge afterwards. It's a decimal or two back in the real mpg gains, I'd expect, but still a great idea and easy to program... biasing the charge output not only by ambient temp but also throttle position, just like cars that disengage the A/C comp during WOT.

AFA the electronic t-stat, go for it. A well-designed part will still have a good lifetime. The IAC stays more busy and those are not frequent replacement parts. Same with EGR valve, and it lives in a harsh environment. I wouldn't think twice if my car had it, and would be impressed & happy if it did. Great Idea. Allows, again, more optimal operation from a piece of machinery. thumbs up.

I think it's great stuff. I couldn't comfortably live with a smaller car, but I have nothing but respect for the cruze, and the folks that can put them to use.

Mike

 

[mechtech2]

But when you need alternator power the most for ignition and fuel delivery, it goes to a low value.
There is a trade off, and hardly worth it to me.

 

[NateDN10]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
But when you need alternator power the most for ignition and fuel delivery, it goes to a low value.
There is a trade off, and hardly worth it to me.

Is there any evidence that this is actually a problem?

A fuel pump draws maybe 5-7A? And the ignition system maybe 1A? That shouldn't really present a problem, assuming the battery isn't allowed to discharge very far.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
But when you need alternator power the most for ignition and fuel delivery, it goes to a low value.
There is a trade off, and hardly worth it to me.

Is there any evidence that this is actually a problem?

A fuel pump draws maybe 5-7A? And the ignition system maybe 1A? That shouldn't really present a problem, assuming the battery isn't allowed to discharge very far.


+1 to this. Fuel pumps are fairly low draw, even with HP SFI and DI systems. The ignition system iirc, draws a negligible amount of power. The battery is perfectly capable of running radio, HVAC blower, and interior lights for hours upon hours upon hours. I'm fairly confident it can handle running the engine during acceleration.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
But when you need alternator power the most for ignition and fuel delivery, it goes to a low value.
There is a trade off, and hardly worth it to me.

Is there any evidence that this is actually a problem?

A fuel pump draws maybe 5-7A? And the ignition system maybe 1A? That shouldn't really present a problem, assuming the battery isn't allowed to discharge very far.


+1 to this. Fuel pumps are fairly low draw, even with HP SFI and DI systems. The ignition system iirc, draws a negligible amount of power. The battery is perfectly capable of running radio, HVAC blower, and interior lights for hours upon hours upon hours. I'm fairly confident it can handle running the engine during acceleration.


Perfectly capable, yes, was the system designed to do so, no. Batteries are not designed to be discharged and then charged back up, like cell phone batteries. The alternators are not designed to charge a dead or severely discharged battery either. Putting the battery and alternator through stress like that, only shortens the life of both components.

IF Cruze indeed puts the battery and alternator through a situation like this, then it is definitely not worth whatever fuel savings GM could achieve in a laboratory.

 

[Rickey]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
But when you need alternator power the most for ignition and fuel delivery, it goes to a low value.
There is a trade off, and hardly worth it to me.

Is there any evidence that this is actually a problem?

A fuel pump draws maybe 5-7A? And the ignition system maybe 1A? That shouldn't really present a problem, assuming the battery isn't allowed to discharge very far.


+1 to this. Fuel pumps are fairly low draw, even with HP SFI and DI systems. The ignition system iirc, draws a negligible amount of power. The battery is perfectly capable of running radio, HVAC blower, and interior lights for hours upon hours upon hours. I'm fairly confident it can handle running the engine during acceleration.


Perfectly capable, yes, was the system designed to do so, no. Batteries are not designed to be discharged and then charged back up, like cell phone batteries. The alternators are not designed to charge a dead or severely discharged battery either. Putting the battery and alternator through stress like that, only shortens the life of both components.

IF Cruze indeed puts the battery and alternator through a situation like this, then it is definitely not worth whatever fuel savings GM could achieve in a laboratory.



I never see battery voltage drop below 12.6 VDC when the engine is running.
Once the voltage has fallen for a period of time the alternator increases output even if the engine is loaded.
I believe that GM has done their homework regarding the battery charge management.
In the MPG game every little bit adds up.

Rickey.

 

[Nick R]

I see the confusion. It's not like the alternator completely shuts off until the battery is dead. It just lowers the output during acceleration, and increases it during deceleration and cruising. I would assume you know that the fuel pump and ignition aren't going to drain more than a miniscule amount of power from the battery during the 10 seconds or whatever you are accelerating.

 

[meep]

Yes. 12.6V is still technically 100% charged battery.

I do agree that the shifting surface charge that goes above 12.6V might have *some* level of wear, but... how many DECADES have we had cars that, at idle, at night, the battery would drop below that, every time we're at a light? Add in wipers, defrost grid and defroster, and sit at 11.5... and battery life really hasn't changed, and that was a far more stressing scenario. Deviation between 12.6 and 14+ basically means at cruise, the battery gets a trickle charge. Toward WOT, the alt powers the car and leaves the batt in neutral.

Thus, this also is not a situation where we have a "severely discharged battery" that damages the alt. It's 4 coils of wire, 2 brushes, 6 diodes, and 2 bearings. As long as bearings are solid and brushes are sized adequately and it has airflow, it'll be fine. They could even bias the output schedule to load limit with a rpm/voltage/field coil max mapping.

It's a side topic, but I wonder where this belief that alternators aren't designed to recharge a fully drained battery comes from. Is it really true? Or is it anecdotal? I've only replaced an alt on one car in my 38 years of living (including my cars, parents' cars, friends' cars). I've replaced more batteries than I can possibly count. I've run 400watt and larger inverters off vehicles for extended periods.... a 300 watt AC load equals 30+ amps at 12V, a sizeable load... no alternator failures.

in college, i drained my car battery so many times, leaving lights on, whatever. quick jump, then drive home. no place for a battery charger. the alt had to do that many times... recharge a completely dead battery--- that was a '90 subaru. 60 amp alt. That alternator even spent several hours under water (woops, with the rest of the engine and half of the passenger compartment) when I u-turned into ditch during a flood (couldn't see it). (had the sense to immediately ignition-off to prevent hydrolock, car ran fine after it was eventually winched out, another story-- my date, however, did not handle it as well). so back on to my off-topic, in my own experience I can't see how deep load of an alternator will kill them. shorten their life, sure? but so do heated seats, DRLs, dual zone A/C with capacity equivalent to a 1.5ton household hvac (no joke)...

M (rambling, obviously...)

 

[SteveSRT8]

Most of the drivel about alternators being ruined by a dead battery come from the days of 60 amp alternators.

If they ran at max output for more than a few minutes they fried. Even then it was rarer than you'd think.

Nowadays 160 amps or more is in almost everything.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Most of the drivel about alternators being ruined by a dead battery come from the days of 60 amp alternators.

If they ran at max output for more than a few minutes they fried. Even then it was rarer than you'd think.

Nowadays 160 amps or more is in almost everything.


Correct. Even at idle most alternators in today's cars provide around 60-70amps which is what used to be the max like SteveSRT8 said. At running speeds 100-160 amps are the norm.

 

[KrisZ]

Get your battery dead in winter few times and let the alternator charge it, it will provide the AMPs, but usually it won't last long after that. It may take few dead batteries and it may fail few years down the road, that's why most people will not even connect dead batteries with failed alternator.

Heat is still an enemy of alternators, that's why a lot of them have air ducts to provide extra cooling, and charging a severly depleted battery generates lots of heat.

 

[MrHorspwer]

GM's "on-demand" charging systems all incorporate an actual hall-effect current sensor on the negative battery cable. It is not just a simple algorithm that reduces voltage based on engine speed and load. Actual electrical demand, actual battery state of charge, calculated battery temperature, and a whole slew of other factors will affect how the alternator is controlled.

For example... Rickey: next time you're monitoring voltage of your ScanGauge, turn on the headlamps. The BCM will recognize the input and should immediatly hold the voltage at 13.9-14.5 V.

As for the thermostat, it's actually quite simple. It is a regular old wax pellet thermostat that starts to open at 221 degrees F and is fully open at 248 degrees F. That's a pretty hot thermostat and is where the "ECM controlled" comes into play. The "ECM controlled" part is just a heating grid. The ECM applies anywhere from 0 to 12 V to the grid. More voltage means a hotter grid and creates a localized hot spot that will melt the wax pellet and open the thermostat earlier. With the full 12 V on the heating grid, the thermostat will being to open at 176 degrees F.

 

[antonmnster]

BMW has had an ECU-controlled thermostat since the 90s.

But I've never seen my temp go above 98C. It's kind of fun to watch under various conditions.