Crush washers.. Al vs Cu

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by PimTac
...it's my thought that there is a difference between crush and deform. A cheap steel washer will deform.
There are probably technical definitions but my thoughts are: 1) Even a cheap steel washer will be pretty hard to crush (flatten, make thinner) against a stamped metal (aluminum, steel, etc) oil pan. 2) You can crush a proper 'crush washer' in these same situations. 3) You can deform both a steel, aluminum, or copper crush washer. By deform, I mean change it's shape from " | " to something slightly like " ( ". Make sense ?




It does. The oil pan drain hole has a smooth surface around it to help create a better seal. It may not be exactly flush so that is where deformation helps along with crushing that fills in any pits and gouges.

I may be grasping straws here. It's like someone calling a jetted tub a Jacuzzi. Jacuzzi is a brand name but over time it has become to be used in a general way just like Fridgedaire or Skil saw or crescent wrench.

 

[Trav]

10"? That is a 1/2 standard size ratchet, no way you want to do that.

 

[4wd]

Originally Posted by Trav
Steel washers can be soft but not soft enough to use as a seal as it does not embed or deform very well especially at low torque. Aluminum pans save weight and are more rigid allowing manufacturers to use sealing methods like RTV and automation to apply it with greater reliability instead of a gasket, the problem with them and plastic pans is usually thread strength is low compared to steel.
Some use steel thread inserts especially on the plastic but most aluminum do not, for this reason a lower torque is spec'd. To achieve proper sealing the crush washer is very soft aluminum with a wide surface area, using a washer harder than the pan can result in marring of the pan sealing surface as you have seen.

There are some steel washers with rubber inserts, nylon, fiber and all work but IMO its best to use what the OE used on the pan, you can buy it from another source but keep it the same inside/outside diameter and material. Once the pan sealing surface is damaged you will always have a hard to seal pan.


Indeed ... GM has used the aluminum pans for added structural integrity on the V8's ... but my L83's now have a small steel sump on the rear of the aluminum pan - plug just uses an o-ring ... (and can get to the plug and filter behind the pans) ...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by PimTac
...it's my thought that there is a difference between crush and deform. A cheap steel washer will deform.
There are probably technical definitions but my thoughts are: 1) Even a cheap steel washer will be pretty hard to crush (flatten, make thinner) against a stamped metal (aluminum, steel, etc) oil pan. 2) You can crush a proper 'crush washer' in these same situations. 3) You can deform both a steel, aluminum, or copper crush washer. By deform, I mean change it's shape from " | " to something slightly like " ( ". Make sense ?

agree.

Ive had malleable flat washer fail due to it distorting ( becoming elliptical outside the bolt lead flange) and leaking.

I've never called a flat washer a crush washer regardless of its material. Its just a soft washer that provides gasketing.

Then again I don't call "MIL" a "CEL" or some of the other made up Internet jabberwocky betwist laypersons..

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by PimTac
...it's my thought that there is a difference between crush and deform. A cheap steel washer will deform.
There are probably technical definitions but my thoughts are: 1) Even a cheap steel washer will be pretty hard to crush (flatten, make thinner) against a stamped metal (aluminum, steel, etc) oil pan. 2) You can crush a proper 'crush washer' in these same situations. 3) You can deform both a steel, aluminum, or copper crush washer. By deform, I mean change it's shape from " | " to something slightly like " ( ". Make sense ?

I had malleable flat washer fail due to it distorting ( becoming elliptical outside the bolt lead flange) and leaking.

I've never called a flat washer a crush washer regardless of its material. Its just a soft washer that provides gasketing.

Then again I don't call "MIL" a "CEL" or some of the other made up Internet jabberwocky betwist laypersons..





Arco you just mentioned the word I was trying to grasp. MALLEABLE. I haven't had enough â˜•ï¸ to get the brain cells running yet. Thanks!!

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Then again I don't call "MIL" a "CEL" or some of the other made up Internet jabberwocky betwist laypersons..


So if your dash light says "check engine" literally...

its not a CEL but a MIL?

Which MIL is on? the "Check engine light"

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by DriveHard
I use copper...if you look at the hardness scales, it is slightly softer, so it should seal better.
Honda uses aluminum-based crush washers. Is Al vs Cu cost a factor ? Maybe.... Do they base their choice more on functionality ? Probably. Copper might be too soft as well.


I would think Cu Washers would be more expensive fot Honda to make ?

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by hallstevenson
Originally Posted by DriveHard
I use copper...if you look at the hardness scales, it is slightly softer, so it should seal better.
Honda uses aluminum-based crush washers. Is Al vs Cu cost a factor ? Maybe.... Do they base their choice more on functionality ? Probably. Copper might be too soft as well.


I would think Cu Washers would be more expensive fot Honda to make ?
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Kind of like electrically which wall switches are more efficient white or dark colored.


Ivory colored switches are the best , hands down .

 

[Hall]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I would think Cu Washers would be more expensive fot Honda to make ?
Not necessarily. How much Cu content do they actually have or how much Al content do they actually have ? You can look at typical Al washers vs Cu washers and see which is easier to produce too. That's a factor also.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Then again I don't call "MIL" a "CEL" or some of the other made up Internet jabberwocky betwist laypersons..


So if your dash light says "check engine" literally...

its not a CEL but a MIL?

Which MIL is on? the "Check engine light"




A MIL light is the one you get a call to come look at at midnight in some restaurant 40 miles by your MIL. Most little gremlin lights say Check Engine above or below them. CEL in my book.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by Trav

10"? That is a 1/2 standard size ratchet, no way you want to do that.

I've been calling 6-1/2 inches
"Ten Inches" for so long I lost reference

Now I gotta go into the basement and measure my snap-on .....

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted by Rand
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

Then again I don't call "MIL" a "CEL" or some of the other made up Internet jabberwocky betwist laypersons..


So if your dash light says "check engine" literally...

its not a CEL but a MIL?

Which MIL is on? the "Check engine light"




I guess I'm too old for the modern world.

The only MILS I have light up whilst in operation were:

ALT

OIL

DOOR AJAR

HOT

And I guess those are Idiots Lights ....

IDL?

 

[2K2AcuraTL]

MIL ,, CEL,,, IDL.... what say you...!?!?
Al or Cu...????

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted by Trav

10"? That is a 1/2 standard size ratchet, no way you want to do that.

I've been calling 6-1/2 inches
"Ten Inches" for so long I lost reference

Now I gotta go into the basement and measure my snap-on .....


That's what you get for buying 6" rulers and telling your wife they are foot long.