cranking off lug bolts - creaking and popping

[Sparkman]

For me it's not an issue of strength or leverage during removal, more of one of longevity and reliability. In the extreme salt conditions we find here it's common to have the nuts rust solid and break the studs during nut removal. Also, once the studs get rusty it's difficult to apply torque accurately. I know that every time I need to remove a wheel it will go smoothly and nothing will be broken.

I suppose I could derate the torque somewhat for the use of anti-seize, but I'd rather err on the tight side given my experience that it doesn't hurt anything. I started this practice as a teenager, long before I knew of its effect on applied clamping force.

I don't know what the salt conditions are like for posters in other locations, but often it's difficult to convey truly how bad it is here. I have a regimen of preemptive anti-seize application that applies to much more than just the wheels.

 

[SkyPup]

Quote:

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The "experts" say never use antiseize on steel to steel connections.

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Really? I've never ever heard that before and I can find no reference on "the net" to any such problem.
Do you have a reference? I'd love to read up on it.
Thanks

 

[rpn453]

Quote:

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Quote:

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The "experts" say never use antiseize on steel to steel connections.

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Really? I've never ever heard that before and I can find no reference on "the net" to any such problem.
Do you have a reference? I'd love to read up on it.
Thanks

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It's not true as a general statement, but it's true in most automotive applications that the torque specs are for dry threads. The design standards at the industrial sites I've worked at call for anti-seize on the carbon steel studs for all flanged piping connections. The effect of the anti-seize is accounted for in the torque specifications.

Quote:

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I suppose I could derate the torque somewhat for the use of anti-seize, but I'd rather err on the tight side given my experience that it doesn't hurt anything. I started this practice as a teenager, long before I knew of its effect on applied clamping force.

I don't know what the salt conditions are like for posters in other locations, but often it's difficult to convey truly how bad it is here. I have a regimen of preemptive anti-seize application that applies to much more than just the wheels.

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Just don't let any monkeys put an impact to it with the anti-seize!

I do often use a little thread lubricant on automotive steel-to-steel applications where the threads are rusty or no longer easy to turn, and I always use it when aluminum threads are involved.

I know what salt and humidity can do based on used cars I've seen from Ontario and Quebec. Used cars are worth more here because they don't rust out as quickly, so they send a lot of used cars from there!

 

[onion]

Quote:

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I have a regimen of preemptive anti-seize application that applies to much more than just the wheels.

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Details, please!

 

[Kestas]

The trucking industry specifies two drops of oil per stud before installing the lug nut and torqueing it down. We once did a semi-formal study at a stud manufacturing facility on truck studs and the effect of neverseize on the studs. Properly applied, neverseize isn't a problem, but when slathered on all the surfaces including the nut mounting face surface, it is a big problem.

 

[brianl703]

I rotated the tires on my 2006 Saab 93 a couple of days ago and I put some Rust Eater on each of the bolts.

Why do European cars generally use wheel bolts instead of nuts, anyway?

 

[Kestas]

Good question. There's gotta be pros and cons to each. With wheel bolts you don't have to worry about serrations to keep the studs in place on the hub. From some of the design problems I've been involved with, that's a big plus. OTOH, with stud bolts it's easier to mount the tire on the hub before running down the nuts.

 

[brianl703]

I actually preferred working with wheel bolts because when I'm working with the wheel a couple inches off the ground I can't easily see whether the lugs are lined up right with the wheel as I put the wheel on. Probably not a concern when you have a lift and can work with the wheel at eye-level.

With the wheel bolts, I could just turn the wheel on the hub until it was lined up right, then put the wheel bolts in.

 

[Turk]

I had my tires rotated and balenced by a shop before I took a trip from Minnesota to Colorado.

On the way back, I heard some clunking, took it into a shop, they could not find the problem, kept going.

Had the Tire & Rim come off the back right of the Tahoe and it PASSED ME IN THE DITCH !!

What an experience !!!

Now, I always hand torque them.

 

[andyd]

when ever I remount wheels, I use the lug wrench that comes with the vehicle. With the alloy wheels I have, I use chassis lube on the contact area of the hub/ wheel to prevent electrolytic bonding. I also grease the lugs. I dont use a torque wrench, but I do progressively tighten opposing lugs in 3 stages. Never had a wheel fall off, never warped a rotor.More importantly, Ive always been able to change a flat tire, when necessary, with the tools that came with the car.

 

[1sttruck]

"...the new coating on wheel studs is usually Dacromet, Magni 561, or something similar. I've reverse-engineered these coatings and they are essentially tiny flakes of aluminum and zinc in a tenacious organic coating. If you think about it, it's not much more different than a drier version of neverseize."

I agree, it wouldn't be different from over the counter 'antiseize'. Thanks for the details as it confirms my guess, and contradicts the apparent warnings about not to use antiseize on wheel lugs.

I don't know what the safety margin is for wheel studs but over tightening can and does weaken fasteners. I suspect that the torque values are for the benefit of the rest of the assembly, and would guess that 2x wouldn't be a problem. Maybe the next time someone is at a wrecking yard getting parts they could try to torque a few wheel studs to breakage.

 

[TheTanSedan]

I owned mainly old cars over the past thirty years. My last car (prior to health taking a nose-dive) was a 1971 Chrysler. I occasionally replaced studs (3-4 over a ten year period), not due to rust but to other damage. I use LC-20/ATF lube to clean stud threads with wire brush, then wipe off carefully. Same with nut threads. Even double checking the tire stores torque values with my own wrench (not calibrated, but not abused), I still carried a breaker bar to get those 15" wheels with 255/70-15 tires off.

Just a few days of temp change (drop), some rain, and they are a bear to remove with an ordinary, short, tire tool.

 

[Kestas]

Wheel studs are an important part of the product we manufacture, and some of the problems with studs fall on my shoulders.

For one study we took automotive studs and torqued them to failure. It took over 400 ft-lbs to break them, well above the recommended torque values.