Cost per mile of an EV?

[PimTac]

I do not know of an investment that does not incur cost. I purchased the solar project with an expected return, just like any other investment.
I agree the Silicon Valley came into play. Los Gatos is the hottest part of the valley, we get a lotta sun.
When I did substantial work to the house, I insulated the crap outta things and installed ceiling fans.
The investment was paid for in cash, so there was no interest expense. Of course, there was the opportunity cost, just like any expendature.
Our electricity costs are very high and expected to continue to rise. Staying at home this past year added unexpected energy consumption.

So you are right; the investment in the solar project was a no brainer.

Regarding maintenance, I hose 'em off. I did use the car warsh pole and car detergent after the fires. As I posted earlier, they are warranted for 20 years. The chances of something happening around here, beyond earthquakes, is pretty small anyways.

Just for a point comparison, I lived in SE Asia for a number of years. Electricity was and is very expensive. We were vulnerable to typhoons and earthquakes.

I did not buy into solar panels there. Instead I went the passive route using the sun to heat water. A relatively inexpensive way to accomplish the task. Everything else was based on initial cost versus outcome. Buying energy efficient air conditioning systems with inverters and sensor tech really helped as A/C is the biggest user of electricity in those parts. LED lighting was well in play long before it was in the US. Simple ideas like planting small trees around the house helped greatly. In the attic, a simple Panasonic bathroom fan helped to push hot air out of that space with little electricity used.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Just for a point comparison, I lived in SE Asia for a number of years. Electricity was and is very expensive. We were vulnerable to typhoons and earthquakes.

I did not buy into solar panels there. Instead I went the passive route using the sun to heat water. A relatively inexpensive way to accomplish the task. Everything else was based on initial cost versus outcome. Buying energy efficient air conditioning systems with inverters and sensor tech really helped as A/C is the biggest user of electricity in those parts. LED lighting was well in play long before it was in the US. Simple ideas like planting small trees around the house helped greatly. In the attic, a simple Panasonic bathroom fan helped to push hot air out of that space with little electricity used.

What does that have to do with the cost of charging our Tesla? You lost me there.
I thought this was the discussion.

In your post #19 you suggested I need to amortize the cost of the solar project over its lifetime.
There is no such thing as amortizing a tangible asset.

 

[PimTac]

What does that have to do with the cost of charging our Tesla? You lost me there.
I thought this was the discussion.

In your post #19 you suggested I need to amortize the cost of the solar project over its lifetime.
There is no such thing as amortizing a tangible asset.

The discussion was expanding or so I thought.


Good luck with your investment

 

[UncleDave]

@UncleDave - I am not sure I follow your post. Please chime in on my calculations if you wish...

My comment was wholly unrelated to your computations.

It was simply that -

1. The only number on an electric bill that you can calculate your actual rate from, is the total bill amount vs any line item that references a $ per KWH number, because that one line item isn't inclusive of all the fees taxes, support for this and that.

2. Well water is a very long way away from being "free".

Solar plus an electric car in California is a great combo.

I have what will be my third home solar setup being planned now and I expect about a 7 year ROI all in perhaps quicker if the prices raise faster than they have prior. Picts to come soon.

UD

 

[JeffKeryk]

The discussion was expanding or so I thought.


Good luck with your investment

Got it. All good.
The solar project is one of the best upgrades I have made on my home.
While it may not make sense for others, as you pointed out, Silicon Valley is a prime area for solar.

 

[Andrew1972]

Cost per mile on a Tesla is excellent at moment due to incredibly high resale. While fuel or energy matters your largest expense in cost per mile is depreciation.

 

[OVERKILL]

Warranted for 20 years.

What's the allowable rate or overall amount of degradation within that 20 year period?

 

[JeffKeryk]

What's the allowable rate or overall amount of degradation within that 20 year period?

I don't know offhand; I would have to look it up.
Panels: 17 LONGI SOLAR:LR6-60PB-300M
Inverters: 17 ENPHASE IQ7-60-2-US

 

[OVERKILL]

I don't know offhand; I would have to look it up. My components:
Panels: 17 LONGI SOLAR:LR6-60PB-300M
Inverters: 17 ENPHASE IQ7-60-2-US

Interesting, I just googled that part number and they say the materials are warrantied (the panels) for 10 years and the output for 25 at 0.55% annual rate of degradation, with first year being less than 2%:

https://es-media-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/media/components/panels/spec-sheets/Longi_295-315w_All_Black.pdf

So it looks like you should be around 91% capacity after 15 years if it sticks to that.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Interesting, I just googled that part number and they say the materials are warrantied (the panels) for 10 years and the output for 25 at 0.55% annual rate of degradation, with first year being less than 2%:

https://es-media-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/media/components/panels/spec-sheets/Longi_295-315w_All_Black.pdf

So it looks like you should be around 91% capacity after 15 years if it sticks to that.

I asked for the latest, best components. Do you have an opinion?

 

[OVERKILL]

I asked for the latest, best components. Do you have an opinion?

It looks like good stuff. Have you been keeping an eye on output?

 

[JeffKeryk]

It looks like good stuff. Have you been keeping an eye on output?

 

[PandaBear]

Cost per mile on a Tesla is excellent at moment due to incredibly high resale. While fuel or energy matters your largest expense in cost per mile is depreciation.

This. On the contrary Nissan Leaf is horrible, which is an example why you cannot just lump all EVs together and say it is cheap or expensive to own.

 

[dlundblad]

No, that's not true. The solar system cost did not change because of the Tesla and neither did my incremental cost.
In finance, the cost of the solar system is known as a sunk cost; it does not fit in the equation.
I am simply getting more benefit out of the asset.

But let me play along...
I bought the solar system before the Tesla; I thought one day I might buy an EV but certainly not in any relevant range.
However, the Tesla gets me to break even point sooner.
Not only that, but the solar project increased the value of my home.

I am pretty good at math. I am pretty good at statistics. I am pretty good at statistical forecasting. And not bad at corporate finance...
I also have to present plans like this, with cost numbers and expected returns, to CEOs and CFOs of multi billion dollar Silicon Valley companies.
They can come up with some pretty humbling questions, lemme tell ya.

Question for you: Do you think PGE electricity rates just might go up over the next 20 years?
Every financial decision I make is based on a minimum of 5 years. 15 or 20 is better.
The solar project was an investment with an expected return as well as a hedge against rising energy costs.
My goal was to minimize my incremental cost of housing going forward with the goal of longtime financial security while minimizing risk.

@UncleDave - I am not sure I follow your post. Please chime in on my calculations if you wish...

He’s basically curious how much you paid for your “solar system.”I’m curious myself.

 

[JeffKeryk]

He’s basically curious how much you paid for your “solar system.”I’m curious myself.

Item Details Cost
5.10 kW PV System $17,085.00
Full reroof for solar install $12,343.00
Total $29,428.00

Fed Tax Credit 30% $8,828.00
Net Cost $20,600.00

The Federal tax credit can be applied to the "Solar Project", not just the solar portion.
My roof was still good, maybe half life. I choose to get a new roof with high end composition shingles.
They also redid the gutters, etc. The solar companies work with the roofing companies; the price was pretty darn good.
The federal tax credit was too good to pass up.
They take care of all the permits, etc.
In early 2019 I had 60' of #6 copper wire run from the service box to a NEMA 14-50 recepticle to charge the Tesla.
I paid a union electrician $600, inc tip to do the install in his spare time.
I might have been able get a break on this as well, but the EV was not in the picture when we did the solar.

This was a great deal at the time; I was close with Costco Sunrun but Infinity Solar offered the best deal with top notch components.
I am sure prices are much better today. Solar is big in CA, especially in Silicon Valley. I love my solar panels.

 

[PandaBear]

Item Details Cost
5.10 kW PV System $17,085.00
Full reroof for solar install $12,343.00
Total $29,428.00

Fed Tax Credit 30% $8,828.00
Net Cost $20,600.00

The Federal tax credit can be applied to the "Solar Project", not just the solar portion.
My roof was still good, maybe half life. I choose to get a new roof with high end composition shingles.
They also redid the gutters, etc. The solar companies work with the roofing companies; the price was pretty darn good.
The federal tax credit was too good to pass up.
They take care of all the permits, etc.
In early 2019 I had 60' of #6 copper wire run from the service box to a NEMA 14-50 recepticle to charge the Tesla.
I paid a union electrician $600, inc tip to do the install in his spare time.
I might have been able get a break on this as well, but the EV was not in the picture when we did the solar.

This was a great deal at the time; I was close with Costco Sunrun but Infinity Solar offered the best deal with top notch components.
I am sure prices are much better today. Solar is big in CA, especially in Silicon Valley. I love my solar panels.

So in your case since your roof is 1/2 way in useful life that means your $20600 is really a $14600 solar system. That $600 tip recepticle is the best deal out of the whole thing. Depreciation that $15k over 20 years means you likely have a cost of $750 + interest rate of 3% (say you roll it into your mortgage) a year and if you saved $750 + $225 (3% of 7500, just an average of 15k from beginning to the $0 in the end) a year on your electricity you win, EV or not.

 

[Snagglefoot]

As an investment, the solar panels refer to "spend money to make money."
The purchase cost of the solar project is gone; it is a sunk cost. The incremental cost of energy may change over time, but that depends on if I exceed the solar production or PGE changes their policy.
Sunk costs are excluded from future business decisions because the cost will remain the same regardless of the outcome of a decision.

The break even and future cost savings were estimated based on past usage and current electricity cost (late 2017). The break even point is accelerated as energy is consumed up to the solar generation limit and energy costs go up.

Full cycle economics says you have not yet broken even on your investment Jeff. You are the one overpaying for your electricity right now. You can’t hide behind sunk costs. We still have your original posts of your economics. Payout comes at year 7. Once its payed out you can crow about it.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Full cycle economics says you have not yet broken even on your investment Jeff. You are the one overpaying for your electricity right now. You can’t hide behind sunk costs. We still have your original posts of your economics. .Payout comes at year 7. Once its payed out you can crow about it.

Ok... Half a crow.
Truth be told, I cannot say when the break even point is. We don't use the Tesla very much; we have 5 cars and the pandemic curtailed driving for just about everyone. But PGE costs are stupid high and going higher. 32 cents a day for electricity, baby!
Gasoline is $4.20 for rag (except Costco), plus 10 cents per gallon more if you use a credit card. And that's the cheapie stations. Chevron is probably $4.50 (cash price) for rag. Wannabe 91* premium is pushing $5.

The main reason I got the solar, along with smaller home projects, was, I wanted to have everything in order for my wife in case something happened to me. Nothing is going on, but I am the "King of the Contingincy Plans". Thing is, she has more than I do...
But everything is done, so all good. I am on cruise mode, at least at home.

 

[Rmay635703]

There are “hidden” costs of owning an EV, the following map shows which states are the most EV accessible and which are punitive with fines, fees, unreasonable home and auto insurance increases and bans in your way of using the car freely without taxes, harassment and inconvenience in your way making it difficult to charge and use an EV, let alone save any money

 

[Skippy722]

There are “hidden” costs of owning an EV, the following map shows which states are the most EV accessible and which are punitive with fines, fees, unreasonable home and auto insurance increases and bans in your way of using the car freely without taxes, harassment and inconvenience in your way making it difficult to charge and use an EV, let alone save any money

View attachment 61123

I’m still confused on how they rate the various states. Indiana for example is ranked as “barely accessible” but there are enough Level 2 stations spaced around you could drive anywhere in the state and not have to worry. I’m having trouble finding any more than 100 miles apart. If it’s due to registration costs, Indiana does charge more to register an EV, but so does Illinois.