Correct viscosity/additive package for solid roller cam+valve spring longevity?

[Last_Z]

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Originally posted by buster:

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Keep your reports coming Chunky .....I plan on running all 15W-50 on my Z28 soon.
At this moment, I'm running 1qt of 15W-50, 350ml of #132 and the rest of 10w30....total sump capacity is 6qts.....I'm hoping for a very thick 30W to a low 40W with the above mix.

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Z, when do you plan on having a used oil analysis on this? I"m interested in seeing how the mix does. I might try it myself to bump up the 10w30 more to a high 30/40wt.

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At the rate I drive....in about 3 more months. I barely drive my car....I only go to and from work....20 miles a day and this is pushing it. Tomorrow will be exactly one month since I changed my oil and I still haven't put 1000 miles on it....and that's taking the car for long drives. Someone else would be driving the wheels off it.
I have done a lot of enthusiastic driving and many WOT runs against my friend's MR2....I love spankin' him and so does he

Rick

 

[ZIPPY]

Oh well, I guess I'll just stay with the 40 and 50 weight oils since I already have several cases on hand. When that finally runs out maybe I'll try the 40 weight Diesel/HDEO oil later.

After seeing how nobody here recommended anything less than 40 weight, with some recommending 50 or 20w50, well that's where I already am, so might as well stay there.

Guess the questions I asked are too hard to give a clear cut answer to, so I'll stop wondering. Thanks for trying!

Folks in real life (as opposed to internet) whom I trust have told me the thicker oil has given them better spring life with more radical valvetrains than I have, so I'll take that advice and run with it for awhile.

'preciate the input.

 

[Jelly]

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Originally posted by ZIPPY:


Guess the questions I asked are too hard to give a clear cut answer to, so I'll stop wondering. Thanks for trying!

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What questions of your weren't answered clearly? I'd help you out more if need be...as would many others here.

 

[MolaKule]

Zippy,

For your application, you need good AW protection and Friction modification for the highly loaded valve assembly.

As for additive packages, you need at least an SF-SJ dosage with approx. = 0.12% ZDDP, moly approx. >= 0.015%, > 0.0005% antimony, and a decent DD package (which most street oils have).

I would start with Redline's 10W30 (Street oil) and add a pint of Schaeffer's #132, and rinse the #132 bottle with one ounce of Lube Control and add remaining contents of bottle to engine. Record oil temps, dyno results, and do used oil analysis

If that doesn't suit you, then experiment and compare various oils on the dyno.

[ September 22, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Wow, so you think it is usefull to add #132 to Red Line? The only thing it might add is Antimony, but I am not even sure RL doesn't have that?

 

[MolaKule]

This suggestion was for THIS specific engine description only.

I would NOT use this combo in a daily driver.

Zippo has this highly loaded valvetrain with a rich fuel mix and he needs some serious AW and Friction Modification.

The ester-base surfactant in 132 gives him a bit more Friction Modification, and will help inhibit oxidation due to fuel in oil.

[ September 22, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

That's what I figured, but was still surprised.

 

[userfriendly]

Inventing his own lash is one of the things that is going to kill Zippy's valve train. Besides the fact he has a race cam in a street machine.
In crank degrees, a roller cam will have a lash ramp of about 20 degrees long with a lift rate of about .001" per degree.
Since it would be impossible to take the lash measurement at the lobe, in Detroit iron the lash is taken at the multiplied end of the rocker.
In the case af a 440 Dodge engine, the stock rocker ratio is 1.5:1.
The lash on the above example would then be .030" measured between the valve and the rocker arm and taken up over 20 crank degrees.
When the lash is taken up, the valve is not off of it's seat or the valve spring loaded.
The next ramp may accelerate the lifter at .002" per degree for 10 degrees, then the next ramp is .003" per degree.
By reducing the lash from .030" to .020", the second ramp is overshot, and the lifter connects with the third ramp and side loads the roller, beating up the valvetrain in the process.
The cam and spring combo in Zippy's engine might last a few thousand miles at best and a few hundred more than likely.

 

[userfriendly]

Instead of attempting to design an oil to handle very high levels of raw fuel, the above Chrysler engine had only a few hours of operation and was saturated, why not cure the problem?
The high fuel levels in this engine is caused by the valve overlap from the tight 110 lobe seperation camshaft, and size of the cam being 262/266 @.050".
Reducing the lash .010" adds 20 degrees to the net duration and will hurt power. (10 degrees on either side of the lobe)
The above 452 Chrysler engine is an example of what not to do to make reliable street HP to 6200 rpm.
Now the engine builder is looking for a magic engine oil to make the contraption work.
Sorry if our answers were not to your likeing Zippy.
Now before it is too late, and you have ruined your engine with gasoline contamination, and your entire valve train with that race stick, you can save the project with a simple cam swap.
The roller lifters will handle 1100 LBS of spring pressure, so you are not going to hurt them with those 500 lb springs.
Your net valve lift after lash is around .624", so you are only getting about 425 lbs out of those springs that are rated for about .675" net lift.
The first move is to get rid of most of the overlap.
You can do this by increasing the cam's lobe seperation from 110 to 116, but not your cam.
Next use a street lobe instead of the race lobe you have now.
Go for .370" lobe lift which will give you .555" lift with 1.5 rockers or .592" lift with 1.6 rockers.
Drop a few degrees from your duration say to 254/260 @.050".
That cam on 116 lobe seperation will give you the following .050" opening and closing figures:
I:11/63 E:66/14
Long after you have established a base line at the track, and your car is hooking, try advancing the cam 4 degrees (crank)and see what happens. It might slow down a tenth or two. Maybe not.
Street lobes have a longer slower lash ramp. The above cam can be safely lashed at .022".
The .022" lash will effectivly remove about 12 degrees from your overlap.
Your lashed overlap area will be around 1/3, maybe less, of the cam you have in your engine now.
The lashed .555" lift= .532" will only be loading your springs to around 350 lbs.
For race day you could bolt in some 1.7 rockers and open the lash to .028" with the cam not advanced.
With 1.7 rockers your net lift after lash will increase to .638", and the effective .200" duration will increase 12 degrees, which is sightly more than as you have now.
Or you could continue to look for magic engine oil.
You do have a good spring oiling system?

[ September 23, 2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]

 

[ZIPPY]

UF so far, every other comment you have made has been wrong. The only thing you got right were opening/closing numbers which anyone can figure out.

How many miles do you believe are on this engine as of right now? Hint: more than you think

What grind number/lobe number of what manufacturer do you think is in this engine?

Does it have the same lobe family int/exh?

What type of racing was the current cam designed for?

What lash did the manufacturer recommend?

For what type of use did the manufacturer recommend said lash adjustment?

Do camshaft manufacturers recommend different lash adjustments for different useage?

Please explain why, when they use a given lobe for both endurance and drag racing, cam manufacturers recommend a tighter lash for endurance racing?
Because they want to really badly beat up the valvetrain as you say will happen?


Where do you believe I currently have the
lash set? Did I set it Hot or cold?
I never gave you a number, yet you like to act like you know.......so tell me.

What type of engine was the carb tuned for before I got it? How long have I owned it? What jets and power valve are in it?

What oil did I run it in on?

How long did I use that oil?

How many oil changes has the engine seen to date?

Since you know everything, you should have no trouble with any of these questions.

 

[userfriendly]

Glad to hear that I'm only wrong every other time.
That gives me a 500 batting average.
Ok, so you have a .420" endurance lobe.
Not too wild on a big Chrysler core and a .903" lifter.
Sure some cam companies will spec two different lashes for the same cam or lobe. It depends on the rocker ratio, and its cheaper than spending $1000.00 for a new master.
I see Comp doing that all the time.
Tight lash oval track lobes. .015" lash.
Same exact lobe in the drag race section wants 026" lash.

Lucky for you, the big cam core and lifter diameter will let you experiment more with lash without harm than the Chevy guys.
Still, that is a lot of cam to run only 6200 RPM with aftermarket heads.
If that was a seroius engine I would have guessed a cam of around [email protected]" would be more like it.
AS the engine sits now at 1.12 HP per CID, your only missing about 140 HP. 91 jets with the power valves plugged to guess at your question in the little dominator carb likely on a B-1 intake with a spacer plate since that would be the trick of the week.

[ September 24, 2003, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]