Correct hardware to loop a chain on itself

[JHZR2]

I don’t even really understand why the stores sell big chains when they have nothing but small connectors.

Ultimately I’m going to buy all us made stuff from Tulsa rigging or someplace like that. But it’s hard to even identify the right parts.

Shackles seem to be the weak point. The pin diameter to fit a certain chain doesn’t match the chain strength.

For example, a 3/8 chain rated at 5400-6600 lbs has an internal opening of 0.6”. So a shackle needs to have a pin diameter of 1/2”, the 21/32” will be too big. The 1/2” pin shackle is only rated at 3300 lb, much less than the rest of the system I’m trying to spec.

 

[JHZR2]

A logging chain with a hook won’t work? I’d just loop it back to itself but never looked at the actual ratings of doing that.

The hook on a logging chain won’t go through the link. I can’t tell if I can get it secure. Would like something more definite and less unwieldy that’s the giant hook.

 

[TnT_M]

View attachment 78649View attachment 78648I don’t even really understand why the stores sell big chains when they have nothing but small connectors.

Ultimately I’m going to buy all us made stuff from Tulsa rigging or someplace like that. But it’s hard to even identify the right parts.

Shackles seem to be the weak point. The pin diameter to fit a certain chain doesn’t match the chain strength.

View attachment 78662

For example, a 3/8 chain rated at 5400-6600 lbs has an internal opening of 0.6”. So a shackle needs to have a pin diameter of 1/2”, the 21/32” will be too big. The 1/2” pin shackle is only rated at 3300 lb, much less than the rest of the system I’m trying to spec.

I would say generally what your experiencing is what is intended, or my experience anyway. The idea is the shackle and other "small" parts are the load limiting factor. You don't want your chain to be the weakest link, IMO.

Also that chain you are looking at the hook is designed to come back and hook on the chain itself. Will that work if you wrap it around your 4x4? That way you wouldn't need the lagged eye on the hook...

just my $0.02

 

[RhondaHonda]

The hook on a logging chain won’t go through the link. I can’t tell if I can get it secure. Would like something more definite and less unwieldy that’s the giant hook.

Yeah I figured that but the chain should go through the opening in the hook. Again, not sure if this is a proper way to secure things.

 

[4wd]

2 part and 4 part shackles are for cable use … as stated you can do wraps and a hook but the hook will need tape or a pull tie since the wraps remove pressure that seats the hook …

 

[doitmyself]

Agreed. I mentioned the hook secure dilemma above. Seems there are two current options: 1.) wrap the chain around the 4x4 with grab hook onto the chain and 2.) eye bolt with metal plate through the 4x4 and appropriate fasteners ($$$).

If he wants to maintain 3/8 grade 70 WLL with option 2, it will require a 7/8 in. eye bolt ( https://www.e-rigging.com/_p_8706.html ) with 7200 WLL. You could fit the chain through the eye bolt and again use a slip hook onto itself.

I'm not sure you can eliminate the bulky slip hook with any type of clevis, shackle, etc..

Edit: Maybe one of these: https://www.riggingwarehouse.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Double+Clevis+Link

Might be able to assemble eye bolt chain assembly with this type connector?: https://www.riggingwarehouse.com/115-gr100hl375-3-8-grade-100-hammerlock-style-coupling-link.html or this https://www.myteeproducts.com/4-pac...merlink-hammer-lock-chain-connector-4836.html

See video here:

 

[PimTac]

The hook on a logging chain won’t go through the link. I can’t tell if I can get it secure. Would like something more definite and less unwieldy that’s the giant hook.

The hook goes over the link not through it. It might not be what you are looking for.

 

[4wd]

This is a short 3/8” choker I carry in the Jeep
(Clip on big end is covered)

 

[JHZR2]

The hook goes over the link not through it. It might not be what you are looking for.

It’s not definite enough of a hold for a long time.

Im looking to use 5200# 3/4 forged eye bolt in 4x4, shackle (currently the question), 3/8 chain, shackle, 3/4” turnbuckle, shackle, chain, shackle, eye bolt, 4x4.

So the issue now is the matching of the shackle with the right pin size to the weight rating of the chain.

The shackles with a pin size that fits the chain don’t have the weight rating of the chain it seems, unless you go with special alloy shackles.

 

[PimTac]

First of all, I enjoy these brain teaser questions. It really give my brain some exercise. The biggest difficulty with these questions is that they need to be researched on-site or in person.

I am assuming the 4x4 posts are continuous from the footing up the the rafter. This is going off your ten foot post description. The posts in the drawing appear to be plumb up to a point where the load of the roof has splayed the tops outwards and this is the area you want to stabilize. Correct me if I’m off on any of this.

I think a wire rope (cable) is better suited here using a turnbuckle to apply tension. The question is how to attach the cable to the wood posts. Drilling a hole straight through the post and then installing a eye bolt with a oversized washer on the opposite side could work.

From the drawing it looks like there is not enough collar beam support at the junction where the post starts to splay. Do you have plans to build extra support once you stabilize the structure?

 

[PimTac]

Another thought just came up. Has this been like this for any length of time? If so it might be permanent and you won’t be able to straighten the posts. Perhaps sistering in a new support with the proper collar supports and top sill level support is the answer. That would stabilize the structure as it is and take the load off of the existing posts.

 

[doitmyself]

It’s not definite enough of a hold for a long time.

Im looking to use 5200# 3/4 forged eye bolt in 4x4, shackle (currently the question), 3/8 chain, shackle, 3/4” turnbuckle, shackle, chain, shackle, eye bolt, 4x4.

So the issue now is the matching of the shackle with the right pin size to the weight rating of the chain.

The shackles with a pin size that fits the chain don’t have the weight rating of the chain it seems, unless you go with special alloy shackles.

The grab hook cannot let go/come apart unless you lose tension combined with a lot of slack. It is physically impossible.

EDIT: Here's a safety grab hook: https://baprod.com/shop/towing/twist-lock-clevis-grab-hook/ and https://www.uscargocontrol.com/products/3-8-clevis-grab-hook-with-latch-grade-70



Pim Tac, I believe the 4 x4's he is talking about will be horizontal ones he adds to the outside of the building (green in picture), not the verticle floor to roof exterior wall studs. I think his idea is to increase tension incrementally on the walls for many weeks to pull them in gradually, similar to raising an unlevel floor over time.

Agree that he needs additional support to retain the changes.

 

[JHZR2]

First of all, I enjoy these brain teaser questions. It really give my brain some exercise. The biggest difficulty with these questions is that they need to be researched on-site or in person.

I am assuming the 4x4 posts are continuous from the footing up the the rafter. This is going off your ten foot post description. The posts in the drawing appear to be plumb up to a point where the load of the roof has splayed the tops outwards and this is the area you want to stabilize. Correct me if I’m off on any of this.

I think a wire rope (cable) is better suited here using a turnbuckle to apply tension. The question is how to attach the cable to the wood posts. Drilling a hole straight through the post and then installing a eye bolt with a oversized washer on the opposite side could work.

From the drawing it looks like there is not enough collar beam support at the junction where the post starts to splay. Do you have plans to build extra support once you stabilize the structure?

I sure appreciate your help!

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m putting 4x4 up on the outside, horizontal, at the top plate of the building to help pull the outward bowed studs in a bit while also helping the ridge to raise slightly.

The roof has purlins with cedar shakes, with asphalt roof on top of that. So lots of weight on an undersupported structure. So the plan is to pull in, remove dead weight, and add the bracing that needs to be there. Currently there are only rafter ties 1/3 of the way up, every other rafter, and no collar ties.

The purpose of all of this is to pull the stud tops inward by using wood across multiple studs to gently pull them in. On a 40ft building I’m going to pull in about 32ft worth across the center of the building.

So the 3/4” eye bolts are 4’ from the ends of a 16ft 4x4. Pulled up from the ground to just below the top
Plate. Holes in the sheathing allow the eye bolts to come through into the building, the the chain tensions inside.

So these are horizontal 4x4; parallel to the ground, across many studs at the top of the building.

I estimate the roof marerials to be around 13000 lb. Of course I’m not going to fix everything by exerting that much lateral pressure on the building, but it seems that in aggregate I need something in excess of that in terms of rated tensioning capacity.

 

[PimTac]

Ah okay, that makes it clearer. Is the 4x4 sufficient? I wonder if 4x6 would work? I’m thinking the more coverage on the outside will prevent too much pressure on a small area. Maybe even 2x6 or 2x8?

This in some ways reminds me of a old wooden building in Tacoma years ago. The building was balloon framed and three stories tall but those were tall floors. The outside was brick. There was a big earthquake in 1965 and the outer walls splayed out. They used steel plates attached to the outside with a eye hook through to the inside where a cable and turnbuckles were used to straighten things out. Then after some time and money was available they built in the need supports between the floors and removed the cables and anchor plates.

 

[4wd]

Oh wow … not what I pictured
Can you use D rings and carriage bolts directly to the 4X4’s ?

 

[JHZR2]

Oh wow … not what I pictured
Can you use D rings and carriage bolts directly to the 4X4’s ?

D rings vs forged eye bolts?

My plan is shouldered eye bolts, 3/4-10, with some heavy washers on the back side held on with a nut. Kind of like a carriage bolt I’d think?

 

[JHZR2]

The grab hook cannot let go/come apart unless you lose tension combined with a lot of slack. It is physically impossible.

EDIT: Here's a safety grab hook: https://baprod.com/shop/towing/twist-lock-clevis-grab-hook/ and https://www.uscargocontrol.com/products/3-8-clevis-grab-hook-with-latch-grade-70



Pim Tac, I believe the 4 x4's he is talking about will be horizontal ones he adds to the outside of the building (green in picture), not the verticle floor to roof exterior wall studs. I think his idea is to increase tension incrementally on the walls for many weeks to pull them in gradually, similar to raising an unlevel floor over time.

Agree that he needs additional support to retain the changes.

The issue with that setup is that it doesn’t give a smooth radius to connect to the next thing in the sequence. I guess I could have used that to simply wrap around a 4x4, but anything smaller and a chain doesn’t have the bend radius.

Plus the hook I think needs to be on the exterior of the building right at the 4x4, which means the hook would mar the exterior sheathing, or ultimately damage it as things get pulled tight.

Another thought just came up. Has this been like this for any length of time? If so it might be permanent and you won’t be able to straighten the posts. Perhaps sistering in a new support with the proper collar supports and top sill level support is the answer. That would stabilize the structure as it is and take the load off of the existing posts.

Yes I’ll be bracing everything. Probably add a larger ribbon joist downstairs, sosterrd studs leading up to it, then new rafter ties for all rafters that don’t have any, and re-set the ties for the rafters that already do. Will also add collar ties to all rafters.

Since I’m going to remove old roof and then re-roof, I should be able to unweight the system, then lock it into place.

 

[JHZR2]

First proof of concept for connection is complete.

Needed the “alloy” shackels to match the weight rating of the 3/4” eye bolts.

Will use all USA made stuff. Key question was if the shackle with a pin sized for 3/8” chain would fit in a 3/4” eye. My major concern is keeping the weight ratings of all parts close and consistent. If I could get away with 5/16” higher grade chain that might be real nice because of the weight, but certainly want all the fittings to have solid capacity because I don’t really know how much force I’m going to be imparting.