Cops not prosecuted for gunning down hobo, riots

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Originally Posted By: JOD
Given that the guy was mentally ill, I'd hardly consider him to have "good communication skills"? I understand that the police don't have his medical history in front of them, but I still maintain that the threat doesn't merit the response.

As far as the racial implications mentioned by others, I'm not sure I agree. While it's not an analogous situation by any means, the Kelly Thomas beating was national news as well. If the police are videotaped killing someone, it's going to make the national news.


It is unfortunate that a mentally ill person got shot, I'd borderline think that mentally ill includes similarity with communication skill issue. However, IF this guy stab someone, especially the cop, would it be any better or worse than him getting shot?

Not saying there's no better method of suppressing this guy, but these people should not be allowed to flash a weapon around. It is like the law of physics, just because you are unable to interpret the consequence doesn't means the rule will not apply to you. If you are a danger to others, you will get shot.

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Their training protocol might get them off. A local cop here (Sergent) was kicking a suspect in the face repeatedly while the suspect was being held down by 4 other cops. The DA let it go because "their training allowed them to kick perpetrators".


I'd imagine it is just an excuse as the DA want to build a good relationship (or not build a bad one) with the cops.
 
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Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
Here we go agian. People Monday night quarterbacking on a situation that 99% know nothing about. Did they fire too many rounds? I dont know I wasn't there. But I have been through the training, and even during training sessions you fire more than the shots needed due to the "excitement" of the situation. So during a life or death situation you might fire 10 rounds even though 4 or 5 would do the job. Since you have multiple Officers thats where you have 46 rounds. A taser? Not on your life! I'm not getting close enough to you to deploy a taser if you are holding a knife. Sometimes the taser barbs dont stick and if that heppens i'm toast. You can judge what happens all you want, and it is your right as an American. But understand that you don't know what your talking about until you lace up my boots and do my job. I will always come home to my family. At the end of every encounter i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!


I was not there. But nothing justifies 46 shots. U r just trying your hand at argument like a dumb lawyer, unfortunately.
 
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
Here we go agian. People Monday night quarterbacking on a situation that 99% know nothing about.
But understand that you don't know what your talking about until you lace up my boots and do my job. I will always come home to my family. At the end of every encounter i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!


U might NOT know your own job apparently, from the argument you are presenting.
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
Here we go agian. People Monday night quarterbacking on a situation that 99% know nothing about. Did they fire too many rounds? I dont know I wasn't there. But I have been through the training, and even during training sessions you fire more than the shots needed due to the "excitement" of the situation. So during a life or death situation you might fire 10 rounds even though 4 or 5 would do the job. Since you have multiple Officers thats where you have 46 rounds. A taser? Not on your life! I'm not getting close enough to you to deploy a taser if you are holding a knife. Sometimes the taser barbs dont stick and if that heppens i'm toast. You can judge what happens all you want, and it is your right as an American. But understand that you don't know what your talking about until you lace up my boots and do my job. I will always come home to my family. At the end of every encounter i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!


I was not there. But nothing justifies 46 shots. U r just trying your hand at argument like a dumb lawyer, unfortunately.


I believe you were trying to say "You are just trying your hand at arguing like a dumb lawyer."

Please, when attempting to have an intelligent discussion about what is obviously a heated topic, have the common decency to use full words instead of ridiculous texting abbreviations that undermine whatever point you are trying to make.
 
Good grammer is a courtesy to the reader. It's also a courtesy, not to mention a stronger argument, to avoid the ad hominem approach...

Sadly, it's clear where courtesy lies in this thread...
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14


So ask yourselves: How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been in a gunfight? How many times have you been threatened with lethal force? How can you possibly know what it's like without those experiences? How can you possibly know how you would respond? And please spare me the keyboard courage and bravado that seems to run through internet fora if you do answer...



wait... now, the guy had a gun....and he was shooting at people??

There's no need to engage in hyperbole to try and make your point. As I said earlier, the video certainly doesn't tell the whole story, and watching it with the benefit of hindsight is obviously nothing like being there real time; but unlike another poster mentioned, we don't "know nothing about the situation". The video provides a lot of insight: they guy was obviously deranged, he was moving slowly and he was holding a knife. Also, this wasn't a combat zone, it was a public place. With the limited information available (which is still pretty significant) it does not look as though these folks acted in the best interest of public safety.

BTW, I don't want to seem uncaring about the guy who was shot, but frankly my other big concern is those other 30-some bullets.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Astro14


So ask yourselves: How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you been in a gunfight? How many times have you been threatened with lethal force? How can you possibly know what it's like without those experiences? How can you possibly know how you would respond? And please spare me the keyboard courage and bravado that seems to run through internet fora if you do answer...



wait... now, the guy had a gun....and he was shooting at people??

There's no need to engage in hyperbole to try and make your point. As I said earlier, the video certainly doesn't tell the whole story, and watching it with the benefit of hindsight is obviously nothing like being there real time; but unlike another poster mentioned, we don't "know nothing about the situation". The video provides a lot of insight: they guy was obviously deranged, he was moving slowly and he was holding a knife. Also, this wasn't a combat zone, it was a public place. With the limited information available (which is still pretty significant) it does not look as though these folks acted in the best interest of public safety.

BTW, I don't want to seem uncaring about the guy who was shot, but frankly my other big concern is those other 30-some bullets.


I didn't say that he had a gun. I didn't say he was shooting.

It's not hyperbole to try and help others understand what a life/death situation is like...Without any kind of combat experience or training, it's impossible to really understand, or even appreciate, what a truly stressful situation is like. Unless you've seen how fast a person with a knife can take you out, it's hard to appreciate what a threat the person with a knife is.

But I have to disagree on the "not a combat zone" estimation of the situation - to any law enforcement officer, situations in a public place can turn from civilian interaction to combat zone in a split second. In many ways, the job of law enforcement is harder than military, since the situation is often more fluid, the threat less obvious. Once the knife was seen, it became very serious for the officers present.

And to my earlier training point - Saginaw, eh? I doubt the police officers there have had the level of training that our military gets...I would hope that they do...but that kind of training is really expensive...smaller towns can't afford it...
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Artem
I never understood why cops always have to shoot to kill... Why not shoot him in the arm that's holding the knife? Shoot him in both legs so he falls down and tackle him.

They are trained shooters yet it seems as if they always close their eyes, turn their heads and just open fire until the clip is empty
33.gif


You'd think that some situations like this, death can be avoided and the criminal can be subdued with just a few NON-LETHAL properly placed shots so he can later be charged after he gets out the hospital.

Just my
49.gif



I take it that you have absolutely no experience with firearms of any kind?


I do have experience and your point is...?
 
I would think that until one puts on the uniform of an officer, we really dont know what in the zell we are talking about, now do we.

Similar to people who downgrade our military men in harms way. Until someone is shooting at you, launching RPGs, throwing grenades and so on, YOU AINT GOTTA CLUE. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen and aren't worth much. imho
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
Here we go agian. People Monday night quarterbacking on a situation that 99% know nothing about.
But understand that you don't know what your talking about until you lace up my boots and do my job. I will always come home to my family. At the end of every encounter i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!


U might NOT know your own job apparently, from the argument you are presenting.


The argument that no matter what I will do what I have to do to get home to my family? AND the argument that people like you who are making judgements of people when you have no experience in this subject beyond what you've seen on T.V. I love the dumb Lawyer comment. Just shows how much you don't know what your talking about since you didn't understand what I was saying. When we second guess ourselves in a life and death situation we end up dead. You get to see it on the news and talk about what we should have done. Get a life.
 
Then do not be a COP if you are scared and value going back home to your family so much. So much that you are willing to carry out stupid saneless actions in order to save your own butt. The risk comes with the territory. Now if the hobo had a AK47, I can make sense of all the cops scared [censored] and unloading all their bullets into him.

Funny question: How many cops and how many bullets does it take to kill a person?
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
I never understood why cops always have to shoot to kill... Why not shoot him in the arm that's holding the knife? Shoot him in both legs so he falls down and tackle him.


You've obviously never shot a weapon. It's extremely hard to aim and hit, say an arm from a reasonable distance with a handgun. And then if you miss you have a bullet that is going God knows where and could hit God knows what. The training is if it gets to the point where you have to draw and fire, you aim for center mass as it's the biggest target.
 
Originally Posted By: chiks

Nothing justifies 46 shots....even if he was bin laden holding a knife.


There were 6 officers and that makes, 8 shots for all (roughly, it's 7.6666 per officer). If someone is intending to use lethal force on me, I will empty all 16 in my clip. When someone is using lethal force, you don't shoot, check and go again...
 
Originally Posted By: chiks
Then do not be a COP if you are scared and value going back home to your family so much. So much that you are willing to carry out stupid saneless actions in order to save your own butt. The risk comes with the territory. Now if the hobo had a AK47, I can make sense of all the cops scared [censored] and unloading all their bullets into him.

Funny question: How many cops and how many bullets does it take to kill a person?


Choosing to not fight with a man with a knife...is a saneless act? Riiiiight....
Well i'm done with this conversation. Because at the end of the day you are still talking out of the wrong hole. You are clueless and no matter what you say will change that. You are allowed to have your opinion, even though it comes from T.V. and movies.
 
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
Originally Posted By: chiks
Then do not be a COP if you are scared and value going back home to your family so much. So much that you are willing to carry out stupid saneless actions in order to save your own butt. The risk comes with the territory. Now if the hobo had a AK47, I can make sense of all the cops scared [censored] and unloading all their bullets into him.

Funny question: How many cops and how many bullets does it take to kill a person?


Choosing to not fight with a man with a knife...is a saneless act? Riiiiight....
Well i'm done with this conversation. Because at the end of the day you are still talking out of the wrong hole. You are clueless and no matter what you say will change that. You are allowed to have your opinion, even though it comes from T.V. and movies.


Evidently your training course is designed to "not think. Leave the thinking to the brass. You just draw and shoot. You are trained to be robots, not thinking men".

Just cuz I do not do your job does not mean I do not have the intelligence to understand what that job demands.

I remember when I applied for the navy right out of college, the recruiting officer very clearly told me that I am too smartto be satisfied with a job like this. He escorted me out. Thankfully so.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest


Quote:
"I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?"


Yeah, because the cops have a hive mind and think as one....



Probably pretty close to the truth. If a circle of cops are assessing a situation and one feels it necessary to shoot the others immediately and automatically defer judgement and start shooting as well.

And if the first "bang" was the perpetrator (not in this instance, holding a knife) then its an arms race to get the most bullets into him first... if he's high on PCP or whatever he can keep shooting for a couple seconds after what we'd expect to be "death".
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14



I didn't say that he had a gun. I didn't say he was shooting.

It's not hyperbole to try and help others understand what a life/death situation is like...Without any kind of combat experience or training, it's impossible to really understand, or even appreciate, what a truly stressful situation is like. Unless you've seen how fast a person with a knife can take you out, it's hard to appreciate what a threat the person with a knife is.



Well, it seems like hyperbole when you're describing a situation that is in no way analogous to the one here; being shot at versus 6 cops surrounding 1 deranged guy with a knife, over an ordeal that went on for over 20 minutes. This isn't a split-second decision with a gun-wielding assailant, so using that to make a point about how one responds under pressure seems ill-suited to me. I'm not saying a guy with a knife can't be dangerous, I'm saying that that all threats are hardly equal, and using an example which is in no way proportionate to what actually happened doesn't make much sense to me--except to help justify what happened.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Artem
I never understood why cops always have to shoot to kill... Why not shoot him in the arm that's holding the knife? Shoot him in both legs so he falls down and tackle him.

They are trained shooters yet it seems as if they always close their eyes, turn their heads and just open fire until the clip is empty
33.gif


You'd think that some situations like this, death can be avoided and the criminal can be subdued with just a few NON-LETHAL properly placed shots so he can later be charged after he gets out the hospital.

Just my
49.gif



I take it that you have absolutely no experience with firearms of any kind?


I do have experience and your point is...?


His point is that shooting a moving target that is going to try and evade you hitting it isn't easy. And then trying to stray from centre mass so you can potentially "maim" rather than kill would truly be an exercise in futility and possibly get you killed instead.
 
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