Hey guys, hopefully you can elaborate on this for me a little- With vehicles like GM's for example requiring DexCool, and Asian vehicles requiring GO-5 coolants, how can a coolant like say, SuperTech Universal or a Prestone Universal work for all makes and models? If each automaker specs a particular coolant for their vehicles, what is different about the universal coolants? TIA!
Coolant question that is confusing me...?
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Coolant questions constantly confuse me, and the more I read the more confused I become about it! I've take the approach of just using the OEM coolant (yes, even if I have to get it from the dealer). The various formulations and chemistries just make my head hurt, and it seems like a safer bet to just stick to the spec'd coolant.
JHZR2
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How can it work? Properly you mean? IMO they cant. What they can do is coexist without causing additive fallout or funky colored sludges. It doesnt mean the chemistry is right, but that may or may not matter depending upon a variety of factors...
Vendors pick chemistries based upon metallurgy, gaskets, cooling system design, potential water chemistry, etc. Much to it. Other variants may work to a point, but they arent within the design. How well the alternates will work, and if an owner ever sees an issue, is really a case by case question.
Plus if one really flushes out the system well and essentially changes the chemistry completely, it may not be that big of a deal.
Vendors pick chemistries based upon metallurgy, gaskets, cooling system design, potential water chemistry, etc. Much to it. Other variants may work to a point, but they arent within the design. How well the alternates will work, and if an owner ever sees an issue, is really a case by case question.
Plus if one really flushes out the system well and essentially changes the chemistry completely, it may not be that big of a deal.
Originally Posted By: renegade_987
Hey guys, hopefully you can elaborate on this for me a little- With vehicles like GM's for example requiring DexCool, and Asian vehicles requiring GO-5 coolants, how can a coolant like say, SuperTech Universal or a Prestone Universal work for all makes and models? If each automaker specs a particular coolant for their vehicles, what is different about the universal coolants?
They can't. Back in 2006 the National Advertising Review Board (Case 4458), in response to a challenge by Valvoline, found that the Prestone claim of "all makes, all models" was not substantiated.
FTC Asked To Review Prestone Advertising Claims
The FTC as far as I have been able to determine never dealt with the matter.
For vehicles with coolants that are chemically compatible, which would be other OAT coolants, it should be okay.
If you are going to use it in a vehicle with a HOAT (G-05) or an Asian vehicle, I would do a 100% flush and replacement to avoid problems.
G-05, if you do a 100% flush and replacement, is really closer to a universal coolant.
Hey guys, hopefully you can elaborate on this for me a little- With vehicles like GM's for example requiring DexCool, and Asian vehicles requiring GO-5 coolants, how can a coolant like say, SuperTech Universal or a Prestone Universal work for all makes and models? If each automaker specs a particular coolant for their vehicles, what is different about the universal coolants?
They can't. Back in 2006 the National Advertising Review Board (Case 4458), in response to a challenge by Valvoline, found that the Prestone claim of "all makes, all models" was not substantiated.
FTC Asked To Review Prestone Advertising Claims
The FTC as far as I have been able to determine never dealt with the matter.
For vehicles with coolants that are chemically compatible, which would be other OAT coolants, it should be okay.
If you are going to use it in a vehicle with a HOAT (G-05) or an Asian vehicle, I would do a 100% flush and replacement to avoid problems.
G-05, if you do a 100% flush and replacement, is really closer to a universal coolant.
They confuse me too...so, to avoid incompatibility and potential problems, I just stick with OE in the Mercedes and Volvos, though the G-05 would likely be OK in them. The Corolla gets OE, and the truck gets plain old green Prestone (but it's been flushed so many times that it doesn't matter).
Originally Posted By: renegade_987
Hey guys, hopefully you can elaborate on this for me a little- With vehicles like GM's for example requiring DexCool, and Asian vehicles requiring GO-5 coolants, how can a coolant like say, SuperTech Universal or a Prestone Universal work for all makes and models? If each automaker specs a particular coolant for their vehicles, what is different about the universal coolants? TIA!
The universally don't meet ANY manufacturer's specification precisely.
Generally, they try to be a 'do no harm' type of formulation that can't really hurt anything even if they don't really provide the best possible corrosion protection, heat transfer, etc. Trouble is, some of them (Prestone, for example) use an organic acid that is known to affect certain older synthetic gasket materials. But most of the time, they're safe enough.
Hey guys, hopefully you can elaborate on this for me a little- With vehicles like GM's for example requiring DexCool, and Asian vehicles requiring GO-5 coolants, how can a coolant like say, SuperTech Universal or a Prestone Universal work for all makes and models? If each automaker specs a particular coolant for their vehicles, what is different about the universal coolants? TIA!
The universally don't meet ANY manufacturer's specification precisely.
Generally, they try to be a 'do no harm' type of formulation that can't really hurt anything even if they don't really provide the best possible corrosion protection, heat transfer, etc. Trouble is, some of them (Prestone, for example) use an organic acid that is known to affect certain older synthetic gasket materials. But most of the time, they're safe enough.
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
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G-05, if you do a 100% flush and replacement, is really closer to a universal coolant.
That agrees with everything I've been able to learn on the subject, and is why I use G-05 in vehicles that originally had inorganic (conventional) coolant like my 60's cars. The one exception would be vehicles that specifically ban silicates or nitrates (some Asian makes), though its very questionable to me whether silicates do any harm at all unless the coolant is neglected to the point that the silicates begin to precipitate out of solution (order of 5+ years, generally speaking, for old-style inorganic coolants that recommend a 2-year change interval). I'd think that modern coolants with silicates like G-05 would have to go a REALLY long time to start seeing a problem.
[
G-05, if you do a 100% flush and replacement, is really closer to a universal coolant.
That agrees with everything I've been able to learn on the subject, and is why I use G-05 in vehicles that originally had inorganic (conventional) coolant like my 60's cars. The one exception would be vehicles that specifically ban silicates or nitrates (some Asian makes), though its very questionable to me whether silicates do any harm at all unless the coolant is neglected to the point that the silicates begin to precipitate out of solution (order of 5+ years, generally speaking, for old-style inorganic coolants that recommend a 2-year change interval). I'd think that modern coolants with silicates like G-05 would have to go a REALLY long time to start seeing a problem.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
The one exception would be vehicles that specifically ban silicates or nitrates (some Asian makes), though its very questionable to me whether silicates do any harm at all unless the coolant is neglected to the point that the silicates begin to precipitate out of solution (order of 5+ years, generally speaking, for old-style inorganic coolants that recommend a 2-year change interval). I'd think that modern coolants with silicates like G-05 would have to go a REALLY long time to start seeing a problem.
I have observations on Toyota and Honda vehicles up to around 110k miles using G-05 and there is no observable ill effects of the very low silicate in G-05.
Within the last couple of weeks someone posted pics of his Mazda cooling system after a long run with G-05 and it was pristine.
The only downside of the G-05 is that it somewhat less long-lived than the OAT coolants.
Another interesting aspect is that generally European car manufacturers recommend that phosphate-free coolant be used, while the Asians use phosphates in lieu of silicate.
In hard water phosphates have a tendency to "drop out" and form deposits.
So, each approach has some advantages and disadvantages.
The one exception would be vehicles that specifically ban silicates or nitrates (some Asian makes), though its very questionable to me whether silicates do any harm at all unless the coolant is neglected to the point that the silicates begin to precipitate out of solution (order of 5+ years, generally speaking, for old-style inorganic coolants that recommend a 2-year change interval). I'd think that modern coolants with silicates like G-05 would have to go a REALLY long time to start seeing a problem.
I have observations on Toyota and Honda vehicles up to around 110k miles using G-05 and there is no observable ill effects of the very low silicate in G-05.
Within the last couple of weeks someone posted pics of his Mazda cooling system after a long run with G-05 and it was pristine.
The only downside of the G-05 is that it somewhat less long-lived than the OAT coolants.
Another interesting aspect is that generally European car manufacturers recommend that phosphate-free coolant be used, while the Asians use phosphates in lieu of silicate.
In hard water phosphates have a tendency to "drop out" and form deposits.
So, each approach has some advantages and disadvantages.
Given the hard water here, I have been buying distilled water for the European cars...I figure at less than a dollar a gallon, so, what, $2 tops for the V-12, it's cheap insurance...am I being too picky on the water quality in the cars if I use the OE coolant?
IMHO any manufacturer that requires a specific coolant is doing bad engineering.
They should all be like Hyundai and say use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The rest is just marketing hocus pocus like top tier fuel or fuel additives.
They should all be like Hyundai and say use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The rest is just marketing hocus pocus like top tier fuel or fuel additives.
In the links below are some of the best articles I've found about coolants. Almost all coolants serve the same purpose. However, most of their differences are on the anti-corrosion package and sometimes their color. The composition of most commercially available coolants are; water, some glycol proportions, coloring, and a specific anti-corrosion package.
If you do not have freezing temperatures, you can use plain water and your cooling system will be fine. But you have to you change it frequently enough, so the water won't ionize. Same goes with almost every coolant technology available. If you change them within their stated life-span your cooling system will be fine. If in doubt, comply with vehicle manufacturer specifications, you can not go wrong with their advice.
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/164.248/anti%E2%80%90freeze.html
http://www.tabpi.org/2011/f10.pdf
If you do not have freezing temperatures, you can use plain water and your cooling system will be fine. But you have to you change it frequently enough, so the water won't ionize. Same goes with almost every coolant technology available. If you change them within their stated life-span your cooling system will be fine. If in doubt, comply with vehicle manufacturer specifications, you can not go wrong with their advice.
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/164.248/anti%E2%80%90freeze.html
http://www.tabpi.org/2011/f10.pdf
Doesn't plain water cause galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals? Further, doesn't plain water have a lower boiling point than a mix of glycol/water? Why, then, would I run plain water?
Quote:
IMHO any manufacturer that requires a specific coolant is doing bad engineering.
They should all be like Hyundai and say use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The rest is just marketing hocus pocus like top tier fuel or fuel additives.
Well then the vast majority vehicle manufacturers have bad engineering.
As for Hyundai recommendation, in my experience many times the owners manual recommendation can be rather vague as to antifreeze requirement. Nissan has been that way, and even the Honda owner manual hasn't/doesn't go into great detail. And DexCool/DexClones would meet the Hy/Kia 'compatible with aluminum engine' requirement, but I doubt H/K oem coolant contains 2eha found in the Dex's.
As for "universal coolants", the great majority are Dex-clone OAT coolants. They are most similar to Dexcool without the GM specific DexCool formula. They also contain 2eha, which has been associated with some gasket incompatibilty. How they claim universal all makes/models is they meet 'some' of the requirements of the Asian P-HOAT's , the Euro's, and are most like DexCool.
What that means is the Universals All M/M can say they meet the silicate free Asian formula requirements, and then say they meet the phosphate free requirements of the Euro's. Not said though is that the Asian's formulas won't use 2eha and neither does G-05 type coolants used in the Euros and some US coolant systems.
Peak Global Lifetime universal OAT is different from the universal Dexclones in that it does not contain 2eha. Which is why some like it and use it especially in place of the Asian's formulas that are generally only available as a premix.
Two of the better resources on the antifreeze types I've seen posted on Bitog are linked below. One may be the same as previously linked above.
Making Sense of the Cooling System Scene
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze for longer service interval
IMHO any manufacturer that requires a specific coolant is doing bad engineering.
They should all be like Hyundai and say use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The rest is just marketing hocus pocus like top tier fuel or fuel additives.
Well then the vast majority vehicle manufacturers have bad engineering.
As for Hyundai recommendation, in my experience many times the owners manual recommendation can be rather vague as to antifreeze requirement. Nissan has been that way, and even the Honda owner manual hasn't/doesn't go into great detail. And DexCool/DexClones would meet the Hy/Kia 'compatible with aluminum engine' requirement, but I doubt H/K oem coolant contains 2eha found in the Dex's.
As for "universal coolants", the great majority are Dex-clone OAT coolants. They are most similar to Dexcool without the GM specific DexCool formula. They also contain 2eha, which has been associated with some gasket incompatibilty. How they claim universal all makes/models is they meet 'some' of the requirements of the Asian P-HOAT's , the Euro's, and are most like DexCool.
What that means is the Universals All M/M can say they meet the silicate free Asian formula requirements, and then say they meet the phosphate free requirements of the Euro's. Not said though is that the Asian's formulas won't use 2eha and neither does G-05 type coolants used in the Euros and some US coolant systems.
Peak Global Lifetime universal OAT is different from the universal Dexclones in that it does not contain 2eha. Which is why some like it and use it especially in place of the Asian's formulas that are generally only available as a premix.
Two of the better resources on the antifreeze types I've seen posted on Bitog are linked below. One may be the same as previously linked above.
Making Sense of the Cooling System Scene
Chrysler switches to OAT antifreeze for longer service interval
Yes Hyundai is very vague. All it says is to use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines. I use the cheap stuff and change it every two years. Worked for the last 30 years with no problems.
I don't even know if I can buy the same stuff. A couple of years ago I bought a case from Farm and Fleet. It's their store name brand and green.
I don't even know if I can buy the same stuff. A couple of years ago I bought a case from Farm and Fleet. It's their store name brand and green.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Yes Hyundai is very vague. All it says is to use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The current Hyundai/Kia coolant is basically the same as the other Asian coolants.
I have been using G-05 HOAT in Hyundais for the last eight years and have found zero issues. G-05, and G-48 which deletes the nitrite in G-05, was designed to work with both cast iron and aluminum. The silicate content is very low. The only downside is that it is not as long-lived as some of the OAT coolants.
Yes Hyundai is very vague. All it says is to use a coolant compatible with aluminum engines.
The current Hyundai/Kia coolant is basically the same as the other Asian coolants.
I have been using G-05 HOAT in Hyundais for the last eight years and have found zero issues. G-05, and G-48 which deletes the nitrite in G-05, was designed to work with both cast iron and aluminum. The silicate content is very low. The only downside is that it is not as long-lived as some of the OAT coolants.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Doesn't plain water cause galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals? Further, doesn't plain water have a lower boiling point than a mix of glycol/water? Why, then, would I run plain water?
Yes, plain water causes galvanic corrosion, for it eventually ionizes. That is why deionized water is the optimal choice for radiators. But if you change the water before it ionizes, then no corrosion problems are to be expected. Also, as mentioned before, it has a higher heat transfer rate than any glycol mixtures. But that is a somewhat maintenance intensive option.
Plain water does have a lower boiling temperature than glycol mixes. However, the increase in boiling temperature by adding glycols is not great. It is the pressure generated by the radiator cap which really lowers the boiling point of the coolant, regardless of fluid chemistry.
Unless you are in a bind, in an extremely hot location, you are a maintenance freak, or extremely cheap, I see no reason to pursue the pure water option. I just mentioned it to illustrate the fact that pure water can be used, provided freezing is not a concern. And to put into perspective the concerns which occasionally exists with the different coolant chemistries. Most of the differences are in the anti-corrosion chemistry, 5% to 1% of the total coolant volume.
Now, the glycol mix brings enhanced lubrication to the water pump, should it be needed. Nowadays, most water pumps are sealed so the lubrication requirement is a mute point, for the most part.
Doesn't plain water cause galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals? Further, doesn't plain water have a lower boiling point than a mix of glycol/water? Why, then, would I run plain water?
Yes, plain water causes galvanic corrosion, for it eventually ionizes. That is why deionized water is the optimal choice for radiators. But if you change the water before it ionizes, then no corrosion problems are to be expected. Also, as mentioned before, it has a higher heat transfer rate than any glycol mixtures. But that is a somewhat maintenance intensive option.
Plain water does have a lower boiling temperature than glycol mixes. However, the increase in boiling temperature by adding glycols is not great. It is the pressure generated by the radiator cap which really lowers the boiling point of the coolant, regardless of fluid chemistry.
Unless you are in a bind, in an extremely hot location, you are a maintenance freak, or extremely cheap, I see no reason to pursue the pure water option. I just mentioned it to illustrate the fact that pure water can be used, provided freezing is not a concern. And to put into perspective the concerns which occasionally exists with the different coolant chemistries. Most of the differences are in the anti-corrosion chemistry, 5% to 1% of the total coolant volume.
Now, the glycol mix brings enhanced lubrication to the water pump, should it be needed. Nowadays, most water pumps are sealed so the lubrication requirement is a mute point, for the most part.
No. It does not prevent it, but it does not cause it.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Doesn't plain water cause galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals?
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Doesn't plain water cause galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals?
"Eventually ionizes"?!? Where did you learn that?
OK tell me how long it takes for water to ionize in a cooling system. Also explain what you mean. I realize I only have a minor in chemistry so be gentle.
And plain water does not cause galvanic corrosion. Two dissimilar metals in electrical contact cause galvanic corrosion. Water is merely the electrolyte.
Originally Posted By: Tanama
Yes, plain water causes galvanic corrosion, for it eventually ionizes. That is why deionized water is the optimal choice for radiators. But if you change the water before it ionizes, then no corrosion problems are to be expected. Also, as mentioned before, it has a higher heat transfer rate than any glycol mixtures. But that is a somewhat maintenance intensive option.
OK tell me how long it takes for water to ionize in a cooling system. Also explain what you mean. I realize I only have a minor in chemistry so be gentle.
And plain water does not cause galvanic corrosion. Two dissimilar metals in electrical contact cause galvanic corrosion. Water is merely the electrolyte.
Originally Posted By: Tanama
Yes, plain water causes galvanic corrosion, for it eventually ionizes. That is why deionized water is the optimal choice for radiators. But if you change the water before it ionizes, then no corrosion problems are to be expected. Also, as mentioned before, it has a higher heat transfer rate than any glycol mixtures. But that is a somewhat maintenance intensive option.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And plain water does not cause galvanic corrosion. Two dissimilar metals in electrical contact cause galvanic corrosion. Water is merely the electrolyte.
I am searching the best information source to address your question about water ionization, so give me some time. Your statement above is correct. Ionized water simply serves as the electrolyte in the galvanic corrosion reaction which takes place in the radiator. The water is just an agent which facilitates it, not it's cause, so I stand corrected. However, changing the water before it becomes ionized negates the corrosion tendency between the different metals in the cooling system. Those are the engine block and the radiator core.
And plain water does not cause galvanic corrosion. Two dissimilar metals in electrical contact cause galvanic corrosion. Water is merely the electrolyte.
I am searching the best information source to address your question about water ionization, so give me some time. Your statement above is correct. Ionized water simply serves as the electrolyte in the galvanic corrosion reaction which takes place in the radiator. The water is just an agent which facilitates it, not it's cause, so I stand corrected. However, changing the water before it becomes ionized negates the corrosion tendency between the different metals in the cooling system. Those are the engine block and the radiator core.
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