They're thinking they have 10's of thousands of data points, not just one data point repeated 10s of thousands of times.
"Consumer Reports ranks Toyota, Lexus most reliable, Mercedes worst"
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They're thinking they have 10's of thousands of data points, not just one data point repeated 10s of thousands of times.
The methodology of CR is same as mine.They're thinking they have 10's of thousands of data points, not just one data point repeated 10s of thousands of times.
Yes, there are facts as far as CRs survey responces. Each year when “Talking cars with Consumer Reports” discuss of how many responses they received that year for their reliability survey, it’s been on a decline since 2015. CR doesn’t mention that the responces are declining. However it is recorded.
At one time, the responses were on the rise from ~500,000 responses to 1.1 million. The when CR changed their format and how they received the responces, it went on a decline to less than 400,000. Not bad but not what it once was...Like many people, I buy what fits my likes, needs & budget.
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I'm confused. Isn't Genesis a Hyundai? In my logical hypothesizing, every model should have its own category. Like I don't see Camaro or Malibu having its own category apart from Chevrolet.
I trust TUV findings a lot more than CR, their data is based on actual inspections. Unfortunately not many US cars.
Lots of links and info.
car-recalls.eu
Lots of links and info.
The best and worst cars according to the TÜV Report 2022 - Car-Recalls.eu
✅ The 50th-anniversary edition of the TÜV Report 2022 includes the results of technical inspections from all TÜV locations in Germany. It reflects data from
car-recalls.eu
*type* of failure means something to me. I had a Gen IV caravan and a well worn ‘93 grand Cherokee. both of them had just so many “brokes,” but not the kind that left me stranded. Windows, locks, door motors, blower fan, A/C…. but the engine always ran, the trans always grabbed and went. I can handle that. It’s the ones that leave you sidelined and walking that bother me. Even the Volvos, which when neglected can do great Christmas tree dashboards (how I bought mine), would start up and get me home.
but, I’ve helped folks out with other issues like broken flywheel tooth, wont catch gear, spins but won’t start…l those are the things that scare me away.
even my Lexus… I bought it at 6 years and it had a laundry list of failures (what???) - multiple door locks, sunroof motor, seatbelt retractor, radio… (not sure what the previous owner was all about) (I know, a Toyota product), and has whispered to me a pending AC issue… I can live with… because it starts every time.
but, I’ve helped folks out with other issues like broken flywheel tooth, wont catch gear, spins but won’t start…l those are the things that scare me away.
even my Lexus… I bought it at 6 years and it had a laundry list of failures (what???) - multiple door locks, sunroof motor, seatbelt retractor, radio… (not sure what the previous owner was all about) (I know, a Toyota product), and has whispered to me a pending AC issue… I can live with… because it starts every time.
Yes, of course we buy what we want. some people prefer information on what they buy, others don't care.
All good, lots of knocking CR yet no one gives other reliable sources of input from 400,000 people or more using your numbers.
If they would or could present other reliable source it would be helpful to others who look for such information.
@alarmguy I have not read the CR report, but I can tell you if much of the numbers in tis thread are even close to correct, a statistician with any integrity would say "too small sample size" or something. Data has to be relevant or it is simply BS.
How can a product score badly in reliability but high in customer satisfaction? There has to be more to the analysis.
There are vehicles that are problematic however, owners loved driving them.
They're comfortable, quiet, nice riding, handled decent, had good outward vision all-round, nice to look at etc.
However, they caused grief in terms of their reliability.
Then there are vehicles that have no soul, aren't particularly comfortable/quiet nor good riding and went about their business without drawing attention to themselves and never an issue in 3-5 years even if their reputation is dirt. This is how vehicles customers satisfaction & reliability differ.
I am actually a HONDA fan however, I am not HONDA loyal. I am actually a CR subscriber however, I don't take everything they say as gospel. I just use them as a guideline.
Here's a perfect example. The latest CR "talking cars". They quote..."over 300,000 survey results(at 18:40 into the video). So it's going down still.
They're comfortable, quiet, nice riding, handled decent, had good outward vision all-round, nice to look at etc.
However, they caused grief in terms of their reliability.
Then there are vehicles that have no soul, aren't particularly comfortable/quiet nor good riding and went about their business without drawing attention to themselves and never an issue in 3-5 years even if their reputation is dirt. This is how vehicles customers satisfaction & reliability differ.
I am actually a HONDA fan however, I am not HONDA loyal. I am actually a CR subscriber however, I don't take everything they say as gospel. I just use them as a guideline.
Here's a perfect example. The latest CR "talking cars". They quote..."over 300,000 survey results(at 18:40 into the video). So it's going down still.
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BS would apply to this or any forum as well.
CR is a heck of a lot more reliable source.
But it’s kind of funny, if you read the reviews of a certain vehicle you would see it matched up with CR. But you don’t read the magazine so how would you know?
It’s easy as heck to score high in customer satisfaction and low on reliability.
Both have nothing to do with the other.
Reliability is a comparison of vehicles against its peers.
Satisfaction is a comparison of people who own a vehicle against other people.
I just don’t get why some people reject information unattainable anyplace else no less. Some people can and do use that information to look at trouble spots in a vehicle and determine if that flaw is a minor issue or major issue for them.
Countless major and minor engine and transmission issues with some vehicles noted by CR are acknowledged industry wide because thief statistics picked it up.
Funny how the statistics point out the reliability of let’s say many Toyota vehicles against some other vehicles that the owners can tell you the same.
Obviously I don’t agree of what you say a statistician would say about getting factual information, that conversation just takes us down the BS road.
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There is ABSOLUTELY no validity to this. You cannot make statistically analysis between brands without same number of observations. It doesn’t tell you anything when it comes to reliability. It only tells you that certain people drive certain brands more than others. But you could get that data from sales numbers too. There is a lot of bias here, and not actual data.
In world where someone’s job depends on doing surveys etc. that person would be fired the moment he/she comes out with idea like this.
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Not sure if you ever saw the TrueDelta data, but it's interesting. Aggregate only appears to go up to 2018:
TrueDelta | Car Reliability Survey | June 2018 Results
Report for year ending June 2018 reliability survey results based on actual car repairs reported by car owners participating in TrueDelta's Car Reliability Survey.
@alarmguy the point I am making is, the CR survey does not adhere to quality statistical analytics. It is a survey; a highly limited survey at that.
Regarding reliability vs customer satisfaction; they should align at least somewhat unless people appreciate garbage and hate quality, right?
"Reliability is a comparison of vehicles against its peers."
Reliability is defined as the probability that a product, system, or service will perform its intended function adequately for a specified period of time, or will operate in a defined environment without failure.
"Satisfaction is a comparison of people who own a vehicle against other people."
Satisfaction is the fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations, or needs, or the pleasure derived from this.
Without a strict definition of terms, it is impossible to derive meaningful information from an analysis. I think this is where we struggle. I am a stickler for terms; I have to be. Otherwise things can mean whatever you want and any valid comparison is lost.
My rub with CR is their lack of terms clarity and small sample size.
Regarding reliability vs customer satisfaction; they should align at least somewhat unless people appreciate garbage and hate quality, right?
"Reliability is a comparison of vehicles against its peers."
Reliability is defined as the probability that a product, system, or service will perform its intended function adequately for a specified period of time, or will operate in a defined environment without failure.
"Satisfaction is a comparison of people who own a vehicle against other people."
Satisfaction is the fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations, or needs, or the pleasure derived from this.
Without a strict definition of terms, it is impossible to derive meaningful information from an analysis. I think this is where we struggle. I am a stickler for terms; I have to be. Otherwise things can mean whatever you want and any valid comparison is lost.
My rub with CR is their lack of terms clarity and small sample size.
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exactly when I took stats validity and reliability were the names of the game, CR lacks both. The one that got me was, "There's nothing sporty about the new GTI." Every car rag raved about the 2015 GTI, and CR said that. Well, that was about as biased as it could get, and then they walked it back.
I bought my first Toyota product in 2016, a 10 y.o. Lexus. It's pretty remarkable how nothing really broke in the 6 years I've had it. 02 sensors this fall (it's a 17 y.o. car and it turned out to be wiring, not the sensors), and this annoying cupholder that I already replaced myself in 2016, broke again this summer. An idler was squeaking in 2020 so I replaced that myself. Let's be honest, a flagship BMW or Audi would have been cheaper back in 2016, and much more satisfying when I drove it home. But likely over the past 6 years, the Lexus is overall more satisfying, in that I never had to pay the dealer for repair or maintenance, which costs more than BMW. Google a brake sensor wire for a LS and one for a 7 series, what a joke.
I participate with TrueDelta.Not sure if you ever saw the TrueDelta data, but it's interesting. Aggregate only appears to go up to 2018:
TrueDelta | Car Reliability Survey | June 2018 Results
Report for year ending June 2018 reliability survey results based on actual car repairs reported by car owners participating in TrueDelta's Car Reliability Survey.www.truedelta.com
Hey, whatever floats our boat is an individual decision on what to research and buy.
I guess my rub is the ones that discredit hard data can not provide their own source of hard data.
Dont get me wrong, not a requirement to buy anything we like, it is an individual decision to elect to buy something and know the short comings of a product ahead of time and see if it matches ones use or not.
There is no valid data here. That is not how actual research is done. You cannot have bunch of data about one product and compare it to product that you don’t have enough data about. This is CR, not peer reviewed journal, so anything goes. But in the world where data is used to do something with it (policy change, product change etc.) this would have never been contemplated, let alone published.
Only thing that is clear here is that bunch of Toyota owners read CR. That is why it is not surprising when new Camry got out they said: new age in dynamic handling
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