Confused - GC (vs) Total(Elf) Quartz 9000 - 0W30

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We have a Chrysler(old 98 minivan), MB E320., and a Toyota. The E320 with 72K clacks too much at startup, using 0w-40, clacks about two minutes here in not so cold CA. The Chrysler 3.8 v6 with 3 times the mileage doesn't clack at all on any oil. The Toyota has solid lifters so has the same noise all the time. Your question is really good.

My point is "over engineering." On paper it looks good to have long long OCI's, and oils designed to match. But in real life use, is this working? I say not so much. The MB takes twice as much oil for a smaller engine than the Chrysler, then doubles the oil drain interval. How is that saving oil? It isn't.

Sticky lifters have been around a long time, what about Pennzoil products? They make a lot of cleansing claims, which I think is the root of the problem, sludge and varnish. In the old days I would put a qt. of Rislone in, do I dare on a non-iron MB cylinder wall? I am thinking of returning the M1 0w-40 I just bought for the MB. I may try the Total/Elf, it can be bought online pretty well. Trouble is, experimenting with 8.5 qt oil changes on a one year interval takes a little too long before I am too old to remember any of it.
 
Originally Posted By: Capa
Doodfood, you've got my interest perked. Is "Europe" accepting the labeling of oils that contain Group III as synthetic? Also, what oils that were previously rejected as synthetic are now considered so?

Group III base stocks straddle the line between synthetic and conventional. More recent group III base stocks are arguably closer to the traditional synthetics than they are to conventional oils.

In the US, companies are allowed to call group III base stocks "synthetic" if they choose. Most European markets simply have been less tolerant, preferring a narrower definition of "synthetic" that excluded group III. Recently, however, products using "better" group III base stocks have been labeled as synthetic in worldwide markets, although manufacturers are reluctant to be open about this. One example is Motul: according to my source, in the most recent reformulation of their 8100 X-Max 5w-30 (great product, incidentally), they found that using some group III made it easier to meet the OEM specs they were targeting. This product is currently sold worldwide under the Motul 8100 product line, which is marketed as fully synthetic.

If you ask me, the terms "conventional" and "synthetic" are not as meaningful as people think, which is why I don't really care who applies which label to group III base stocks. What matters is the total formulation. But, there it is (as I understand it, of course).
 
Originally Posted By: Finklejag
Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
From what I have learned in these forums, (and the fact that BMW AND Jaguar both "recommend" Castrol Products


All that means is Castrol won the highest bid to put their name on the oil cap.

...and work with them to develop lubricants and hardware together.
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
We have a Chrysler(old 98 minivan), MB E320....

My point is "over engineering." On paper it looks good to have long long OCI's, and oils designed to match. But in real life use, is this working? I say not so much. The MB takes twice as much oil for a smaller engine than the Chrysler, then doubles the oil drain interval. How is that saving oil? It isn't.

.

Apples to oranges comparison perhaps?

I would say you have a point however the operational requirements of a domestic minivan compared to that of a german sedan are vastly different.
 
Have used GC in wife's 530i sports package for the past 30K miles and will continue to do so. Every time I check the oil it's in exactly the same place at the maximum level. OCIs are 7K miles or slightly less. More than pleased with the oil, as well as driving the car. Did a WOT run the other day, but I won't mention the speed for fear of Big Brother monitoring the site. Produced quite an adrenalin rush.
 
You are comparing apples and oranges.
The API SM spec does not begin to cover either BMW LL-01 or MB 229.5.
The Euro specs have far higher performance requirements than does API SM.
Check out the Lubrizol site, and take a look at the relative performance tool.
API SM looks pretty weak compared to any Euro spec.
For a car calling for API SM, on shortish drain intervals, API SM is fine.
For a car calling for a more demanding spec, that is what you should use.
In your case, both GC and M1 0W-40 meet the required spec, and are readily available at reasonable cost.
Another consideration might be how you run the car, and how often you wnat to change the oil.
If you don't run the car hard for extended periods of time, and you don't need to exceed 5-6K on an oil fill, then you could probably do just fine with a 5W-30 in your application.
There are UOAs here, posted by AJ, that show good result using non-spec oils in demanding (VAG turbo) Euro applications.
 
Once again, I wish to thank all of you for all your replies. They are very informative, and I am learning more as every day passes by.

For the simple reason of not to start an oil "Brand war", I am including, certain specs below for two BRANDS of Oil. They are BOTH European, they are both 0W30 Grade. The specs I got right off the litre (quart)of oil, the scientific stuff, although one manufacturer only offered a few tidbits, I wrote in the comparable on of the other brand. I don't wish to give more information on one brand over another. Here we go...

...............BRAND A....................BRAND B
Meets &
Exceeds...ACEA A3/B4............ACEA A3/B3 - A3/B4
..........API SL/CF..................API SL,SJ/CF
..........BMW Long Life 01........BMW Long Life 01
..........Mercedes Benz 229.5...Mercedes Benz 229.1/229.3/229.5
..........VW 502.0/505.0..........VW 502.0/503.01/505.00
..........MB, Chrysler, Smart......ILSAC GF-2/ GF-3
..........BMW Mini, Audi, Seat
..........Skoda, Vaxhall, Opel
..........SAAB, Peugeot, Citroen
..........GM LL-A-025 B-025
..........PSA E05/D05 Niv 3

Vis @ 40C...............68,45...............72.0
ASTMD445

Vis @ 100C.............12,18...............12.21
ASTMD445

Vis Index...............170...............167
ASTMD2270

Pour Point C..............-54..............-54

Flash Point C...............226...............>200


Based on this information, I have a couple of questions:

1) Which BRAND would be "thinner" at Cold cranking?
2) Which Brand would be "thicker" at running temps?
3) Which Brand would protect my engine under severe HOT driving?
4) Which Brand is less likely to break down?

... if these can be answered with the information given.

If there are any scientists out there who would really like to break this down I will gladly provide the brand names of the oils so they can search further and answer the following:

5) Is there a way to know what Group 'SYNTHETICS" pao, eSTHER.... THESE ARE.... (i do know that Brand B is PAO)

As always, Thank you in advance.
 
Thank You for your reply.

There is ONE thing for sure - I religiously change my oil & filter every 5000 miles on ALL the cars. Oil life meter or not.
All my books are stamped & I basically have double the manufacturer's stamps in my books. For example, the Jaguars require a 10,000 mile service, I do it at the dealership every 5000 miles. Benz and BMW have oil life meters, when the meters drop 5000 miles, I perform the oil change, when they reach 0 I perform the required service with an oil change.
The only difference is that I show up and tell them to "USE CUSTOMER OIL". Everything else is dealer parts and labor. To date, I was using the US Castrol Edge 5W30 on the Jags - M1 0W40 on the Benz and The BMW High Performance 5W30 in the Z4. All I was trying to do, at first is shorten, or get rid of the "darn valvetrain noise" (dry start) on the BMW. I astonishingly succeeded by using an imported Total/Elf Quartz 9000 0W30, because at the time I didn't know of the existence of GC.
Driving is spirited, but not severe under most cases. The Supercharged Jag get a workout here and there with some WOT moments in there. Aside from my yearly trip through the new mexico desert, whereas the electronic nanny (speed limiter) comes into play with the Supercharged Jag, the others are driven in a moderately demanding manner, but very rarely abusively. As of now, the Supercharged Jag is completely changed over to GC, and the other three are running the Total 0W30. I am very pleased with the cold starts, especially on the BMW. Believe it or not, although the Benz had M1 0W40 in it, changing to the Total/Elf Quartz 9000 0W30 actually cut the "dry start" in half, but we are only talking about 3-5 seconds less clacking. Now on the BMW it made a substantial difference. I am pretty much satisfied with the idea of having 0W "startup" oil in the cars, now, I just have to convince myself that on the top end W30, I am offering my engines the same, or better protection than I was with the 5W30, or 0W40 once it starts getting hot out here. Although I agree, M1 0W40 would work in the much hotter conditions, from what I have learned in these forums, GC 0W30 is almost a 40 weight hot anyway. Ideally, I would LOVE to use the same oil in all the cars, year round.
 
Quote:
There's also a "Total QUARTZ ENERGY 9000 0W30" which describe as a "...100% synthetic lubricant..." This is the old Elf Excellium Full Tech and I believe it is a group IV (or at least mainly that)


That's the stuff that obliterated the valetrain noise on my BMW. Smooth & Quiet.

Next oil change, was planning on going to GC, now I am wondering if that's necessary. Obviously, they must both be quality oils.
 
Total Quartz Energy 9000 0w30 is indeed the old Elf Excellium Full-Tech. That is a PAO/ester rich oil. Very good.
 
Thank you so much for confirming this fact for me.
The difference in the cold startups is absolutely astonishing.

For now, the BMW Z4 will keep the Total Quartz 9000 0W30, and I am seriously considering simply keeping it on this oil from now on because the difference is extreemely noticeable.

The X-Type currently runs the same oil, although it shortened the cold startup clatter some, I might try QC the next time around.

The supercharged Jag is on GC, and I will probably keep it running GC, since it is apparently a "thicker" 30 weight.

The MB, is doing well, with Quartz 9000 0W30, but then again it was doing well with M1 0W40 also.

I got a bit of a lecture from the dealership about running "non recommended" oils, (not Castrol) in the Jags, since they are both on warrany, I might do this, run the Jags on GC, and I will probably keep the Benz and most certainly the BMW on Total Quartz 0W30. UNLESS....yes there is an unless, when I experiment the next time around with GC in the BMW, if I dont get the same startup result, I will simply switch back to Quartz 9000.
 
Originally Posted By: BritGerCarLuvr
I got a bit of a lecture from the dealership about running "non recommended" oils, (not Castrol) in the Jags, since they are both on warrany,

If the non-Castrol oil in question carries the approval for which your car calls, then pay that lecture no mind.
wink.gif
 
Yeah. . . it's the Total Quartz 9000 0W30. They also lectured me on choosing the 0W30 weight, instead of the preferred 5W30 weight, stating that if there was ever to be a warranty claim on the engine, that the first thing they do is check the type of oil used.
Since Total Quartz Energy 9000 is SL/CF A3/B4 and a long list of other approvals... which is EXACTLY what the owner's manual calls for, although they do , in fact write "5W30 preferred" 0W30 is on the list of weights that can be used. I dont think they would be able to blame the oil.
Especially if I revert to the Castrol 0W30, which is their reommended brand.
 
Do you have enough scientific "know how" to pinpoint which would be the better lubricant under severe hot operating conditions with the information provided below. BRAND A is PAO/Esther and BRAND B is PAO. or it it as simple as the fact that they both meet the same specs, therefore they are both good oils?

...............BRAND A....................BRAND B
Meets &
Exceeds...ACEA A3/B4............ACEA A3/B3 - A3/B4
..........API SL/CF..................API SL,SJ/CF
..........BMW Long Life 01........BMW Long Life 01
..........Mercedes Benz 229.5...Mercedes Benz 229.1/229.3/229.5
..........VW 502.0/505.0..........VW 502.0/503.01/505.00
..........MB, Chrysler, Smart......ILSAC GF-2/ GF-3
..........BMW Mini, Audi, Seat
..........Skoda, Vaxhall, Opel
..........SAAB, Peugeot, Citroen
..........GM LL-A-025 B-025
..........PSA E05/D05 Niv 3

Vis @ 40C...............68,45...............72.0
ASTMD445

Vis @ 100C.............12,18...............12.21
ASTMD445

Vis Index...............170...............167
ASTMD2270

Pour Point C..............-54..............-54

Flash Point C...............226...............>200
 
The HTHS figure is a good indicator of high-temp/high-stress performance. Without that, it's somewhat of a guess.

A PAO/ester blend is probably going to be a bit more stout than just PAO.
 
Not sure I saw this in the thread... but is the Total 0W-30 as thick at operating temperatures as GC 0W-30 (which said to be a 40 weight at temperature)?

I too want an 0W oil for cold start ups but don't want to put my engine at risk on hot days. GC 0W-30 does that (I think). Would the Total be the same?
 
Originally Posted By: fredf
Not sure I saw this in the thread... but is the Total 0W-30 as thick at operating temperatures as GC 0W-30 (which said to be a 40 weight at temperature)?

GC isn't a 40-weight at temperature. If it were, it'd be 0w-40 instead of 0w-30.
wink.gif
People call it a borderline 40-weight because its hot viscosity is near the top of the xw-30 range.

As for the viscosity of the other oil, if the link below reflects what you would get if you bought it, then yes, its hot viscosity will be very close to GC's.

http://www.totaloilsolutions.co.nz/products/pdf/product/QUARTZ ENERGY 9000 0W30.pdf


Originally Posted By: fredf
I too want an 0W oil for cold start ups but don't want to put my engine at risk on hot days. GC 0W-30 does that (I think). Would the Total be the same?

What kind of car? What does it spec originally?

If GC works, the Total should work as well.
 
The car is a 2011 VW GTI. The manual specs a 502.00 oil. GC meets that requirement although the manual also says a 5W-40 is the preferred weight.

I'm not an oil expert so I don't understand what could be the downside of using a 0W that is good for cold starts (I live in Toronto) and a 30 that is 'almost' a 40.
 
Originally Posted By: fredf
The car is a 2011 VW GTI. The manual specs a 502.00 oil. GC meets that requirement although the manual also says a 5W-40 is the preferred weight.

Good. Carry on, then.
thumbsup2.gif



Originally Posted By: fredf
I'm not an oil expert so I don't understand what could be the downside of using a 0W that is good for cold starts (I live in Toronto) and a 30 that is 'almost' a 40.

I was born in Toronto! Haven't been back nearly as much as I would have liked. Starting to miss it.

Assuming both oils under consideration meet the requirements for your engine, the only possible downside is that the xw-30 might be slightly too thin if your oil temperatures get really high. In real terms, this probably won't be an issue unless you're spending a lot of time at a race track on a very hot day. Other than that, you should be fine. For street driving anywhere but the Sahara Desert, you should have nothing to worry about.
 
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