Completely re-thinking engine oil, and the API

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: addyguy

1. Yes, a lot of oil 'improvements' aren't necessary BECAUSE old-spec oil will last as long as it needs to - 6-7k. See the UOA in the post - TBN of 5 after 3k.


taking 1 data point and extrapolating it to represent everything is a bit presumptuous no?

 

[Virtuoso]

I want to know how that 1985 10w-40 would *really* hold up for 6-7k in most modern engines. 3k OCI was standard back then... The TBN held up great, but how would the oil over-all hold?

Would the 10w-40 shear into maple syrup before the TBN dropped out? Perhaps it could still take care of acids, but is breaking down much faster otherwise than a modern oil? There is more to an OCI than TBN..we need to look at viscosities and such too.

Or have oils gotten better, but only incrementally so..as if the API service "steps" are more like baby steps than giant leaps in an oil's ability to do it's job.

I'm just not quick to say 25 year old oil's will do fine in a *modern* engine without many UOA's proving that they can handle them... I'm not really talking an econobox motor, but put it in something like a turbocharged or direct injected engine. Something an API SN oil is designed to handle.

 

[addyguy]

Okay...let me change my statements here a bit.....

I agree that going 'completely' back to EVERYTHING about an SE/SF spec oil would be silly and counter-productive. I'm just saying that a mixing of mostly older products with some minor improvements would yeild less-expensive oils that would work perfectly well in 80% of vehicles.

A 'modern' group I+ base oil would be a good start - b/c of even improvements in group-I processing, it would be higher quality than a group-I from 25-35 years ago, but still be much cheaper than a group II+ of today.

VII's are failry inexpensive to produce, as they have been around for a long time. So take a modern VII, and add it to a group I+ base oil, and you could still produce all grades needed that would perform well.

As for additives, again, there have been improvements in them, even the basic ones. Just use less expensive ones. Like I've said, 1,000ppm of a 'modern' Zn/P mixture, plus 300-600 ppm Ca and 200-500 ppm of Mg detergent would provide a fairly robust oil that would have a TBN of 6-7, and last as long as many OLMs go, 6-8k (yes, some go much more, but most do city driving).

The important thing is that this combination would be much, much cheaper to produce than modern oils with moly, Boron, OB Ca...etc...and would provide good protection. I do NOT share Dr. Haas' assertion that this combo would lead to accelerated engine wear.

If I had more money and time, I'd work with Bruce381, like Gary did, to make this exact oil, and run it from new in a car and track UOA's...

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
If you mean changes that are made to oil to protect CC's, I think they are over done, and the importance of them is exaggerated.

As I've stated, modern engines are tighter today than they've ever been, and most engines burn almost no oil for their entire life. Lots of 200k mile vehicles that use 0 oil between changes.


No way. Most engines that I've seen, especially those with that are mid-life at around 75k do burn a bit of oil in between services.

Heck, even our 6,000 mile old Nissan VQ35 V6 burns 1/2 qt in between oil changes!

 

[gogozy]

how much was a house cost back in 70s or 80s? how much was gas cost back then compare to today's price? compare to that, i don't think oil is too much more expensive after 6 certifications.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: addyguy

1. Yes, a lot of oil 'improvements' aren't necessary BECAUSE old-spec oil will last as long as it needs to - 6-7k. See the UOA in the post - TBN of 5 after 3k.


taking 1 data point and extrapolating it to represent everything is a bit presumptuous no?


I also disagree about this point, because what other reason would my direct injected 2.5L need 6.6 quarts of SL oil (spec by Toyota) when a typical engine this size only need 4 quarts of SH oil?

Clearly if you put 4 quarts of SH oil in this engine, it will probably only last 2000 miles or sludge up like the Toyota 3.0 V6.

 

[mark pruett]

I suspect that you guys have an exaggerated notion of how the cost of a product (in this case, oil) relates to the sale price.

I bet oil's like anything else- the actual cost per quart is probably pretty low, and would be influenced by things like vertical integration, etc...

For example, it's not unlikely that Exxon's internal cost per unit for it's own Gp II might be lower than the cost per unit of an external blender for Gp I oil.

Also, those prices aren't necessarily set as a percentage above cost; rather they're set in relation to their competition- Quaker State as a value brand is always going to be priced cheaper than the Pennzoil/Valvoline/Havoline/Castrol dino brands. Similarly, SOPUS won't let Pennzoil be priced much above or below the Valvoline\Havoline\Castrol dino brands.

Pricing is really a matter of marketing and customer perception, not a function of product cost. It's also likely that some expensive brands may actually be cheaper per unit than some value brands, but the company chooses to sell them at a higher markup for a higher profit margin, than position them as a value brand and sell more.

There just wouldn't be a market for SE rated oil in today's world- what would you market it as? "Not TOO inferior for today's cars?" or "Just good enough for 3000 miles, but dirt cheap?"

The people who would be interested in oil like that are probably already buying Golden State and Ring-Seal oils, or if they care, they're buying Coastal or Supertech for their 1989 beaters.

 

[Artem]

I want to add my $0.02 to this...

I think that the use of older specs oils would require slightly smaller OCI's to maintain engine reliability in today's engines.

This would go against the grain in today's world where people are looking to do LESS and LESS maintenance on their cars.

Manufacturers are advertising 100K Zero maintenance and OCI's are being extended higher and higher with every new model engine that's produces.

With the Ave OCI nearing 8-10k it would be foolish to backtrack to 4-5k as to not stress the older spec oils.

 

[badnews]

Quote:
So...why do we need 6 new levels of certification


Because you are wrong.

Engines sludged up with the old formulations.

They needed work all the time - it was just easier to work on them. They also had zero - none of the EPA mandated add on junk that causes heat/ or / cold depending on the system. And are in fact horsepower robbing items.

Your whole statement and premise was wrong to start with -- and the reason we need the new oils is because you were in fact overlooking the real reasons the new API grades were made.

 

[ponderosaTX]

My perspective on the past 40 years of oil technology is almost diametrically opposed to addyguy's. Contemporary oils that meet API standards strike me as remarkably cheap and effective. Conventional house brand oils (e.g., Walmart Super Tech) typically cost less than $2 per quart yet their performance (as dictated by API certification) in automotive applications mandating API oils is outstanding. Engines (including their pollution controls) typically last with little diminution in performance for 150,000-200,000 miles or more, with pollution controls (cats) as the weakest link. In contrast, most 70's era vehicles noticeably deteriorated after 50,000 miles and almost never ran as well as a typical modern vehicle.

Of course, better oils are only part of the reason why modern vehicles are so much better. But they are an essential part of modern vehicle technology.

I personally choose to use oils that exceed the API standards to provide an extra margin of safety. But the cheapest oils that meet those standards are still good oils and appear to satisfy addyguy's desire for cost effective oils. As other posters have noted, if you adjust the cost of house brand oils for inflation, they are much cheaper than any of the credible oils sold in the 70's.

 

[NateDN10]

Oil is still pretty inexpensive.

And I think we need to define what a "modern" engine is, because there may be different perceptions. If you're just talking about computer-controlled port-injected engines, they're going to be easier on oil in general than a carbureted engine.

However, if you're talking about the newer breed of direct-injected, turbocharged engines, there are plenty of UOAs showing that conventional API SM oil is overmatched.

Another thing to think about is the fact that, like it or not, there is a big push for resource conservation. Manufacturer-recommended long OCIs are becoming the norm, and will only get longer.

 

[paulswagelock]

Remember, there was 180% inflation from 1980 until today. So a $2 oil as suggested, would have cost 50 cents or so in the 1980's. I seem to recall oil being at least a dollar or more per quart. So, that is approximately $3 in today's dollars.

I say oil is a real bargain given the technological advances (3x the OCI) compared to 1980. For about the same amount of money adjusted for inflation, I can drive 3 times longer.