Cold pour test
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Complaints aside, what the video shows is how those oils flow out of those funnels at that temperature. How the video correlates to the performance in an engine is not determined by this test.
Unless there is a completely transparent engine out there, nothing will demonstrate exactly how the oils perform in an engine. Of course the experiment has limitations, but there is no getting around the fact that some of the oils were thicker and more gooey than others within the same grade and all other things being equal I'm not sure how one would dispute that the more fluid oil would not pump at least marginally better as far as the initial cold start up is concerned.
Complaints aside, what the video shows is how those oils flow out of those funnels at that temperature. How the video correlates to the performance in an engine is not determined by this test.
Unless there is a completely transparent engine out there, nothing will demonstrate exactly how the oils perform in an engine. Of course the experiment has limitations, but there is no getting around the fact that some of the oils were thicker and more gooey than others within the same grade and all other things being equal I'm not sure how one would dispute that the more fluid oil would not pump at least marginally better as far as the initial cold start up is concerned.
Between 2010 & 2013 this Russian auto club cold-pured just about everything although the differences were not as easy to appreciate in their tests of very small samples inside a clear bottle (and many of the brands are not relevant to consumers in our market).
https://www.youtube.com/user/torcon1000/videos
They stopped posting these for a while but there is one fairly recent test, along with many filter disassembly videos on their channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJi3g6wpkg
https://www.youtube.com/user/torcon1000/videos
They stopped posting these for a while but there is one fairly recent test, along with many filter disassembly videos on their channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJi3g6wpkg
Originally Posted by Darris
Unless there is a completely transparent engine out there, nothing will demonstrate exactly how the oils perform in an engine..
No, you can use rocker arm (or cam) oiling time, and time to stable oil pressure to have an EXTREMLEY good understanding of how the oil behaves.
And freezer glug tests aren't representative of that.
Unless there is a completely transparent engine out there, nothing will demonstrate exactly how the oils perform in an engine..
No, you can use rocker arm (or cam) oiling time, and time to stable oil pressure to have an EXTREMLEY good understanding of how the oil behaves.
And freezer glug tests aren't representative of that.
just curious at what temperature does oil turn into plastic or so hard that can not be pumped with a pd pump?
Even though it may not be applicable to average drivers ...
Has there been a comparison of for example 0w vs. 5w vs. 10w or conventional vs. synthetic at super low temps.
it would be interesting to see what different oils look like at -75°F in case I go to N. Pole or one these cold villages up in northern Alaska
Even though it may not be applicable to average drivers ...
Has there been a comparison of for example 0w vs. 5w vs. 10w or conventional vs. synthetic at super low temps.
it would be interesting to see what different oils look like at -75°F in case I go to N. Pole or one these cold villages up in northern Alaska
The Sioux Falls incident(s) showed that the actual cooling rate would lead to formation of waxes, when the pour point as measured with traditional methods would not have indicated a problem...there were engine failures, and pour point, which was the traditional "W" measure simply didn't correlate with them.
The MRV has a viscosity (scanning Brookfield) limitation, but also has a "no shear stress", meaning that it must be a fluid (shear stress is those lines that appear in Jello, away from the slumping area)
So the waxes stopped oil being pumped...the shear stresses stopped oil being pumped, and specific cooling rate made a big difference too. (you can have cooling regimes happening in the shed you store the oil in that create a memory that can't be erased until it's heated to 80C.
Oil in service is allowed to slip a grade and still meet API standards.
Fuel dilution may improve CCS, but mess up MRV.
The MRV has a viscosity (scanning Brookfield) limitation, but also has a "no shear stress", meaning that it must be a fluid (shear stress is those lines that appear in Jello, away from the slumping area)
So the waxes stopped oil being pumped...the shear stresses stopped oil being pumped, and specific cooling rate made a big difference too. (you can have cooling regimes happening in the shed you store the oil in that create a memory that can't be erased until it's heated to 80C.
Oil in service is allowed to slip a grade and still meet API standards.
Fuel dilution may improve CCS, but mess up MRV.
Originally Posted by Darris
Between 2010 & 2013 this Russian auto club cold-pured just about everything although the differences were not as easy to appreciate in their tests of very small samples inside a clear bottle (and many of the brands are not relevant to consumers in our market).
https://www.youtube.com/user/torcon1000/videos
They stopped posting these for a while but there is one fairly recent test, along with many filter disassembly videos on their channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJi3g6wpkg
Thanks for posting this.
Although they don't do an exact, side-by-side comparison, if l compare the three videos of 0W20s, 0W30s & 0W40s using my calibrated eyeball, it's clear that around -30C, the oil with the lowest weight (the 0W20) is the most mobile oil and the one with the highest weight (the 0W40), the least mobile.
All 0WXX oils should be good down to -40C. Just remember that the relationship between Viscosity & Temperature follows a log-log path so the weight of the oil will impact on the viscosity of the oil at -30C.
Between 2010 & 2013 this Russian auto club cold-pured just about everything although the differences were not as easy to appreciate in their tests of very small samples inside a clear bottle (and many of the brands are not relevant to consumers in our market).
https://www.youtube.com/user/torcon1000/videos
They stopped posting these for a while but there is one fairly recent test, along with many filter disassembly videos on their channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJi3g6wpkg
Thanks for posting this.
Although they don't do an exact, side-by-side comparison, if l compare the three videos of 0W20s, 0W30s & 0W40s using my calibrated eyeball, it's clear that around -30C, the oil with the lowest weight (the 0W20) is the most mobile oil and the one with the highest weight (the 0W40), the least mobile.
All 0WXX oils should be good down to -40C. Just remember that the relationship between Viscosity & Temperature follows a log-log path so the weight of the oil will impact on the viscosity of the oil at -30C.
SoJ
but there's a difference between the pour point test and cooling rate, the MRV cooling rates and holds, and the random field/refrigerator tests.
Pour point was discounted as a "W" grade measure, as to paraphrase the SAE, it had very poor correlation to pumpability of oils in the field.
So as a corollary a field cold glug test indicates little about performance in an engine
http://machinerylubricationindia.co.../328-how-to-determine-engine-oil-quality
See the Sioux Falls mention there...not that cold a temperature...just how it got there caused many engine failures.
The tests shown above, while impressive for a home experimenter really only show you how easy it is to do an oil change at -20C...and we don't know the past history even of the oils being tested.
https://www.savantgroup.com/media/SBTDirectCoolPaperV12-SAE2008-01-2481.pdf
but there's a difference between the pour point test and cooling rate, the MRV cooling rates and holds, and the random field/refrigerator tests.
Pour point was discounted as a "W" grade measure, as to paraphrase the SAE, it had very poor correlation to pumpability of oils in the field.
So as a corollary a field cold glug test indicates little about performance in an engine
http://machinerylubricationindia.co.../328-how-to-determine-engine-oil-quality
See the Sioux Falls mention there...not that cold a temperature...just how it got there caused many engine failures.
The tests shown above, while impressive for a home experimenter really only show you how easy it is to do an oil change at -20C...and we don't know the past history even of the oils being tested.
https://www.savantgroup.com/media/SBTDirectCoolPaperV12-SAE2008-01-2481.pdf
Scary papers vs a YouTube video. There is no question, a YouTube video is obviously going to win because it feeds the primal instinct, just like the infomercials.
When you start a cold engine, where is most of the oil located? It's at the bottom of the oil pan at the lowest point of the engine. Where in that scenario is it being poured down? It's not even being gravity fed into the oil pump, instead it's being sucked in via the pickup tube, so it has to travel up.
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Now I know why the engine would start cranking faster after just few attempts and it has nothing to do with the pour test.
When you start a cold engine, where is most of the oil located? It's at the bottom of the oil pan at the lowest point of the engine. Where in that scenario is it being poured down? It's not even being gravity fed into the oil pump, instead it's being sucked in via the pickup tube, so it has to travel up.
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Now I know why the engine would start cranking faster after just few attempts and it has nothing to do with the pour test.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Scary chart for that too...
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Scary chart for that too...
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Scary papers vs a YouTube video. There is no question, a YouTube video is obviously going to win because it feeds the primal instinct, just like the infomercials.
When you start a cold engine, where is most of the oil located? It's at the bottom of the oil pan at the lowest point of the engine. Where in that scenario is it being poured down? It's not even being gravity fed into the oil pump, instead it's being sucked in via the pickup tube, so it has to travel up.
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Now I know why the engine would start cranking faster after just few attempts and it has nothing to do with the pour test.
^^^^^
A very good post here I think.
One interesting aspect of note about these pour videos... It does verify the CCS noted by the PQIA... In one video the Castrol EP was slower than the Pennzoil Ultra and the Mobil 1... Not that it means the Castrol EP would not be ok at -20F... It would have been fine. But it did verify the difference in the CCS numbers calculated by the PQIA test results. That was interesting to see in a real life example.
Scary papers vs a YouTube video. There is no question, a YouTube video is obviously going to win because it feeds the primal instinct, just like the infomercials.
When you start a cold engine, where is most of the oil located? It's at the bottom of the oil pan at the lowest point of the engine. Where in that scenario is it being poured down? It's not even being gravity fed into the oil pump, instead it's being sucked in via the pickup tube, so it has to travel up.
Once the pump picks it up and moves the oil through itself and the gallies, this action puts in heat into the oil, right from the start. If you look at the viscosity graph at very low temps. It's very steep, meaning the oil viscosity changes a lot when compared to the temperature change.
I noticed it years ago starting old diesel farm equipment, of course at the time I didn't know why. Basically after few attempts at cranking, provided the battery was good or on a booster, the engine would start cranking a bit faster. It takes very little temperature raise to lower the viscocity of the oil.
Now I know why the engine would start cranking faster after just few attempts and it has nothing to do with the pour test.
^^^^^
A very good post here I think.
One interesting aspect of note about these pour videos... It does verify the CCS noted by the PQIA... In one video the Castrol EP was slower than the Pennzoil Ultra and the Mobil 1... Not that it means the Castrol EP would not be ok at -20F... It would have been fine. But it did verify the difference in the CCS numbers calculated by the PQIA test results. That was interesting to see in a real life example.
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