Cold good Warm bad Idiocy abounds, I thinketh

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Again, the local TV news is babbling about the best time to buy your gas.

"Buy at night when the gas is denser," the teleprompter reading buffoons bellow.

Okay..... consider this.

Climatic conditions in areas next to oceans tend to have fewer extremes in temperature. The ocean acts as a heat sink, absorbing heat and releasing it slower than soil does.

This latency also occurs away from the ocean. It takes a little time for absorbed heat to dissipate. The atmosphere loses heat quicker than the ocean or land does. The shortest day of the year is in December yet the average coldest temperatures are in January..... a time when the days are getting longer.

Yes, a complicated subject but the basics are out there on the Web or in some science-related books.

First, just how much of the sun-created daytime heat can reach those underground tanks? I don't know but I have noticed how house basements are often cooler than the house above.

So, even if there is heat transfer to the gas in those underground tanks it will be during the daylight hours, stopping when the sun quits beating down.

Second, consider the latency factor. Suppose there actually is heat transferred to the gas in that underground tank (not saying there is or isn't). The latency factor regarding how fluids hold heat tells me that it would take awhile for that stored-up heat to transfer to the soil around the tanks. To attain the desired outcome as related by the TV dingalings, one would have to pump the gas after that built-up heat has transferred. Merely claiming that pumping at night is the best time is a meaningless statement.

The pumper has to wait for a certain period of time after the sun sets for the accumulated heat to have dissipated!!!!

Seems to this writer that the optimal time would be at sunrise up to an hour or so after, before the day's heat has had a chance to warm the gas in those underground tanks and the lengthiest period of time from when yesterday's heating was transferred to the fuel tanks.

Thus, instead of spewing "fill up at night," doesn't logic dictate that one should actually pump fuel first thing in the morning after the sun has risen and up to a couple hours afterward?

Coot is applying what is hopefully logic since data and facts are unavailable. Seems that logical thinking and a basic awareness of thermodynamics would negate what the babblers babble in their broadcast.

Comments?

One request. Coot has noticed a mere few incidents of inability to comprehend the written word. Please, before lambasting the old guy, ensure thou hast read and comprehended the message the was hopefully communicated in a manner that is, in fact, comprehensible.

Thank you, thank you very much.

/Coot hasn't left the shanty.
 
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At least it won't be crowded when you fill up during the day.




A highly under rated byproduct of misinformation.


I dunno about gasoline ..but I imagine that it applies. Most petroleum products are sold at temp/specific gravity. The content is either slightly condensed or expanded (depending on how you look at it) and so are the btu's produced from it. I would imagine that the gasoline, assuming that it's not right off the truck, would have a fairly stable temp in the ground ..so the amount put in your tank will probably be fairly consistent. Now once there, I would imagine that it would either expand or contract based on the ambient temp ..whatever that may be. That is, I don't see the price paid as being any better or less for the product yield.

..but I don't see how it makes any difference in utilization. So ..you have .003 gallons of diluted btu content?? What happens anyway? The foot goes further to the floor ..or the PCM broadens the pulse width.

Now I could be wrong ..if the fiberglass lined tanks are more subject to ground temperature ..and ground temperature varies greatly during the day (as our resident coot mentions).

First thing in the morning would seem like the ideal time if there's any fire to this smoke.
 
I think that the tanks are deep enough in the ground that we are hashing a mute point. Although, the fill up pump is above ground so it does have some merit. I had read somewhere that there is roughly a gallon of gas already spooled up and waiting when you go to fill up. In other words if the last customer filled with hi octane fuel, then then the first gallon out will be hi octane followed by your selection.
 
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I think that the tanks are deep enough in the ground that we are hashing a mute point. Although, the fill up pump is above ground so it does have some merit. I had read somewhere that there is roughly a gallon of gas already spooled up and waiting when you go to fill up. In other words if the last customer filled with hi octane fuel, then then the first gallon out will be hi octane followed by your selection.




I have never really thought about fuel remaining in the line from the tank to the dispenser but it makes sense that fuel would remain in this line for some time before gravity would cause the fuel to drain back to the holding tank.
 
Is this the thread where a gallon is no longer a gallon? Or where a gallon that shrinks after being cooled has less total BTUs...

Size-volume-BTU's. What's the difference right?

laugh.gif
 
It has been enough of a concern that gas retailers have formulated a response. Something to the effect that they are selling volume of gasoline and not BTU's.

I believe there are some places that DO require temp-compensated pumps.
 
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Is this the thread where a gallon is no longer a gallon? Or where a gallon that shrinks after being cooled has less total BTUs...

Size-volume-BTU's. What's the difference right?

laugh.gif





js, it's no joke in the heavier fuels ..nor in NG. You pay per deca-therm (spl?) based on the btu content for NG. I don't know their sampling/testing methodology for NG ..but for #1-#6 fuel oil ..you pay based on specific gravity for the load you are filled with. The documentation for the load references the temp/spec gravity/temp.
 
I think the only way for the effects of temperature to have any significant or measurable impact on the amount of fuel your getting for your buck, would be to wait till winter to buy your fuel, but then you'd be getting 10% ethanol so you might as well have just bought it in the summer ANYWAYS.

The temperature in the tank is, like you were saying there, probably not influenced by surface temperatures very quickly at all. More than likely, the temperature of the tank is a result of average temps over the previous WEEK or so.
 
"More than likely, the temperature of the tank is a result of average temps over the previous WEEK or so."

That makes sense.

Here where winters get cold, pipes, etc. are required to be below the frost line. Go deep enough and the soil temperature does not vary greatly from season to season, albeit there is surely some temp loss at the depth those fuel tanks are located.

However, looking at the BIG picture, as uttered by a responder, I envision there isn't that big of a difference in fuel temps within those tanks to be meaningful.

Let this be a lesson to all.... teleprompter-reading babblers with mighty white teeth are to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.
 
The pumps are submersible, not above ground. Only some real old pumps are above ground. But there is a pump in each tank and the line to each dispenser (what the motorist thinks of as a gas pump) is filled.
 
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Quote:


Is this the thread where a gallon is no longer a gallon? Or where a gallon that shrinks after being cooled has less total BTUs...

Size-volume-BTU's. What's the difference right?

laugh.gif





js, it's no joke in the heavier fuels ..nor in NG. You pay per deca-therm (spl?) based on the btu content for NG. I don't know their sampling/testing methodology for NG ..but for #1-#6 fuel oil ..you pay based on specific gravity for the load you are filled with. The documentation for the load references the temp/spec gravity/temp.




I knew NG was done that way. You're buying therms. I didn't know they sold fuel oil that way and I'm unsure of the propane I buy either. I buy it by the gallon so I'm guessing it's like gasoline but I don't really know.

The real question to address the original post is, if we're buying pump gasoline by the gallon and not by the BTU, how much does it shrink from daytime to night and how many extra BTU's can we get that way...
 
I buy my propane (not delivered - grill tank) by the pound. They put it on a scale. Not too many ways to argue with fair price there
dunno.gif
I'm getting X# of propane mass ..unless they have their thumb on the scale....
 
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I buy my propane (not delivered - grill tank) by the pound. They put it on a scale. Not too many ways to argue with fair price there
dunno.gif
I'm getting X# of propane mass ..unless they have their thumb on the scale....




Yep. My grill tanks get filled that way but my 500 gallon heating tank is filled by the gallon and with no corrections that I can see.
 
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