"Follow the money" - how many Billion$ does each Big Oil company make? Who funds the anti-climate change "studies"? I'm sure Big Oil has the consumer and environment's best interests in mind.
Climate change - an oil based question.
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Shannow
"Follow the money" is certainly pertinent to the carbon tax scam...take Oz, and we get taxed, and lower income brackets get "double compensation", and pay less...that's pure vote buying.
As to following the money and the science, I'd rather trust Universities than researchers funded by oil companies.
Universities have become more like multi billion dollar corporate entities in the last few decades. They are politically driven and agenda motivated.
Trustworthy? Not a chance, they will fiddle data like no bodies business to keep those big dollar grants coming in, there are enough cases that have been proven.
EXACTLY!
They have whole departments that do nothing but solicit grant money, and there are numerous examples of the facts being twisted to suit the entity that is funding things. And higher education's notable political bias is hard to escape.
This is also the case with any company (oil, etc.) or government ordering a study by the eggheads. It's not always deliberate, but of course it is reality.
So "follow the money" remains the short but accurate version!
Originally Posted By: Shannow
"Follow the money" is certainly pertinent to the carbon tax scam...take Oz, and we get taxed, and lower income brackets get "double compensation", and pay less...that's pure vote buying.
As to following the money and the science, I'd rather trust Universities than researchers funded by oil companies.
Universities have become more like multi billion dollar corporate entities in the last few decades. They are politically driven and agenda motivated.
Trustworthy? Not a chance, they will fiddle data like no bodies business to keep those big dollar grants coming in, there are enough cases that have been proven.
EXACTLY!
They have whole departments that do nothing but solicit grant money, and there are numerous examples of the facts being twisted to suit the entity that is funding things. And higher education's notable political bias is hard to escape.
This is also the case with any company (oil, etc.) or government ordering a study by the eggheads. It's not always deliberate, but of course it is reality.
So "follow the money" remains the short but accurate version!
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No problem, I wasn't trying to chastize you. Every global warming thread ends the same way here. A great deal of chest thumping and pontificating, some URLs are posted, and eventually it becomes a screaming match because there are no real answers to be had at this point in time. Then the lock hammer comes down. It's inevitable in this thread too, although it's been pretty civil as compared to others I've seen.
Oh yeah, in before the lock!
Oh yeah, in before the lock!
I'll be happy if the warming results in bigger waves and no need to wear a wetsuit in central CA anymore
Originally Posted By: surfstar
"Follow the money" - how many Billion$ does each Big Oil company make? Who funds the anti-climate change "studies"? I'm sure Big Oil has the consumer and environment's best interests in mind.
This concern over oil company profits is the real problem. IMHO people need to look through the smoke and mirrors.
The oil companies prospect, test drill all over the world in every kind of hostile climate at their expense to get the oil. They then transport it, refine it and transport it again for pennies a gallon profit. Sure they make tens of billions but its from volume not high profits.
Without all the taxes and fees the price of fuel would be unbelievably inexpensive.
The companies bare all the cost from the very beginning to when you put the nozzle in the tank. Governments on the other hand make dollars a gallon on tax and do absolutely nothing except put their hand out and sell drilling permits on land owned by the American people.
Who is the real villain here? They have this game down to a science, blame the oil companies as they know every low information voter in the country is pre programed to hate them while they keep raking in the cash.
The oil companies are not innocent by any means but they are not the super villain they are made out to be.
Accepting Global Warming or Climate Change as its now called is beneficial to Governments as they can use it every time they want to add or increase a tax or put new restrictions in place.
Once one removes the rose colored glasses the whole climate change business looks very dirty indeed, almost like Government run organized crime.
"Follow the money" - how many Billion$ does each Big Oil company make? Who funds the anti-climate change "studies"? I'm sure Big Oil has the consumer and environment's best interests in mind.
This concern over oil company profits is the real problem. IMHO people need to look through the smoke and mirrors.
The oil companies prospect, test drill all over the world in every kind of hostile climate at their expense to get the oil. They then transport it, refine it and transport it again for pennies a gallon profit. Sure they make tens of billions but its from volume not high profits.
Without all the taxes and fees the price of fuel would be unbelievably inexpensive.
The companies bare all the cost from the very beginning to when you put the nozzle in the tank. Governments on the other hand make dollars a gallon on tax and do absolutely nothing except put their hand out and sell drilling permits on land owned by the American people.
Who is the real villain here? They have this game down to a science, blame the oil companies as they know every low information voter in the country is pre programed to hate them while they keep raking in the cash.
The oil companies are not innocent by any means but they are not the super villain they are made out to be.
Accepting Global Warming or Climate Change as its now called is beneficial to Governments as they can use it every time they want to add or increase a tax or put new restrictions in place.
Once one removes the rose colored glasses the whole climate change business looks very dirty indeed, almost like Government run organized crime.
Quote:
reduces the infrared heat loss from the earth. The amount is significant enough that it is measurably upsetting the current climate that has taken thousands of years to settle down.
Since these things are measurable, exactly how much less infrared heat is escaping the atmosphere than at some randomly chosen past date?
And for the record, I said nothing about thermal output.
I will ask again:
Mankind's contribution to heat + natural (base line) heat = actual temperature.
This should be a very easy question if the current climate has been "measurably upset".
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But for others there will be serious issues such as flooding and drought resulting from the more variable weather.
You mean like the 50 million "climate refuges" that never happened and those "threat" areas that actually increased in population?
http://asiancorrespondent.com/52189/what-happened-to-the-climate-refugees/
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Darn right I do and I have great respect for them.
Based upon what empirical evidence?
reduces the infrared heat loss from the earth. The amount is significant enough that it is measurably upsetting the current climate that has taken thousands of years to settle down.
Since these things are measurable, exactly how much less infrared heat is escaping the atmosphere than at some randomly chosen past date?
And for the record, I said nothing about thermal output.
I will ask again:
Mankind's contribution to heat + natural (base line) heat = actual temperature.
This should be a very easy question if the current climate has been "measurably upset".
Quote:
But for others there will be serious issues such as flooding and drought resulting from the more variable weather.
You mean like the 50 million "climate refuges" that never happened and those "threat" areas that actually increased in population?
http://asiancorrespondent.com/52189/what-happened-to-the-climate-refugees/
Quote:
Darn right I do and I have great respect for them.
Based upon what empirical evidence?
Wow fella's - thanks for all the responses. If we relate this to "food for thought" this is a feast. Many good issues and points raised on all sides of the coin. It wasn't till after I posted that I discover "climate change" and "global warming" were a no-no, but all in all, I think we've been pretty cool in discussing a pretty hot topic. Thanks again.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Without all the taxes and fees the price of fuel would be unbelievably inexpensive.
Governments on the other hand make dollars a gallon on tax and do absolutely nothing except put their hand out and sell drilling permits on land owned by the American people.
Trav, I pulled out a bit of your hyperbole to quote(noted as I don't mean to remove context, just be clear on what I am quoting). The price of gas in the US would not be unbelievably inexpensive without taxes. The tax rates don't exceed a dollar unless there are local rates that really hike up the amounts. Your assertion would be spot on in Europe. I would also rather pay more fuel tax IF the money would go towards our infrastructure instead of having to pay tolls on roads. Of course, it seems that not a whole lot of the money that makes its way into government hands seems to go to the right places. That, however is a different discussion.
As long as we use oil, I will have a good career, so I am not complaining. Whether or not people want to believe it, the easy ways of life we led in the past have had many unintended results that have made people come up with complicated fixes. I just hope we run out of problems before we run out of fixes or get overrun with deniers.
Taxes by state for your reference. Tax page
Without all the taxes and fees the price of fuel would be unbelievably inexpensive.
Governments on the other hand make dollars a gallon on tax and do absolutely nothing except put their hand out and sell drilling permits on land owned by the American people.
Trav, I pulled out a bit of your hyperbole to quote(noted as I don't mean to remove context, just be clear on what I am quoting). The price of gas in the US would not be unbelievably inexpensive without taxes. The tax rates don't exceed a dollar unless there are local rates that really hike up the amounts. Your assertion would be spot on in Europe. I would also rather pay more fuel tax IF the money would go towards our infrastructure instead of having to pay tolls on roads. Of course, it seems that not a whole lot of the money that makes its way into government hands seems to go to the right places. That, however is a different discussion.
As long as we use oil, I will have a good career, so I am not complaining. Whether or not people want to believe it, the easy ways of life we led in the past have had many unintended results that have made people come up with complicated fixes. I just hope we run out of problems before we run out of fixes or get overrun with deniers.
Taxes by state for your reference. Tax page
Sorry i should have been more specific i was thinking the 8-9 dollars a gallon we pay in Germany.
In any case take MA fuel tax plus the fed tax and MA sales tax on the whole amount and it comes to almost dollar a gallon for doing absolutely nothing. MA has the balls to tax a tax.
Sure they say it goes for the infrastructure but they say the same about the excise tax.
The latest thing is they need to repair the roads and the T and want another fuel tax increase.
In any case take MA fuel tax plus the fed tax and MA sales tax on the whole amount and it comes to almost dollar a gallon for doing absolutely nothing. MA has the balls to tax a tax.
Sure they say it goes for the infrastructure but they say the same about the excise tax.
The latest thing is they need to repair the roads and the T and want another fuel tax increase.
As many have stated before, I do not mind paying my taxes.
I just hate the way the money is WASTED!
Think 100 million dollar African Vacation...
I just hate the way the money is WASTED!
Think 100 million dollar African Vacation...
Just came out yesterday.
Quote:
Nonetheless, the authors argue, the results do point towards ocean–ice interactions that are not being captured in current computer models.
http://www.nature.com/news/oceans-melt-antarctica-s-ice-from-below-1.13200
Ocean temps are more important to ice loss than is air temp.
Quote:
Nonetheless, the authors argue, the results do point towards ocean–ice interactions that are not being captured in current computer models.
http://www.nature.com/news/oceans-melt-antarctica-s-ice-from-below-1.13200
Ocean temps are more important to ice loss than is air temp.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I don't mind paying taxes. I mind paying taxes more than once.
Well, one way or another you pay for taxes on fuel, either sales, or separate infrastructure (road, pipeline, refinery, etc), foreign government (ME oil is going into the royal's pocket instead of citizen anyways), our military complex (to muscle a good oil deal and stable oil production), etc etc.
Pick your poison.
I don't mind paying taxes. I mind paying taxes more than once.
Well, one way or another you pay for taxes on fuel, either sales, or separate infrastructure (road, pipeline, refinery, etc), foreign government (ME oil is going into the royal's pocket instead of citizen anyways), our military complex (to muscle a good oil deal and stable oil production), etc etc.
Pick your poison.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I don't mind paying taxes. I mind paying taxes more than once.
Well, one way or another you pay for taxes on fuel, either sales, or separate infrastructure (road, pipeline, refinery, etc), foreign government (ME oil is going into the royal's pocket instead of citizen anyways), our military complex (to muscle a good oil deal and stable oil production), etc etc.
Pick your poison.
I tried explain this to my son one time by laying a potato on the kitchen table and telling him all the taxes that are connected to that one simple potato. He lost me by the time we were on the truck heading to the potato warehouse.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I don't mind paying taxes. I mind paying taxes more than once.
Well, one way or another you pay for taxes on fuel, either sales, or separate infrastructure (road, pipeline, refinery, etc), foreign government (ME oil is going into the royal's pocket instead of citizen anyways), our military complex (to muscle a good oil deal and stable oil production), etc etc.
Pick your poison.
I tried explain this to my son one time by laying a potato on the kitchen table and telling him all the taxes that are connected to that one simple potato. He lost me by the time we were on the truck heading to the potato warehouse.
Originally Posted By: Cristobal
To survive, we humans (or whoever might have replaced us) must migrate to another planet or attempt to get the Earth into a higher orbit if anyone is around at such a late date.
I've been telling my wife this for years. I don't know why we argue about co2, or the whether the oceans are rising or falling. When our sun goes super-nova and vaporizes the planet it won't matter about global warming or climate change or any of that. Our #1 goal should be inter-galactic space travel!
To survive, we humans (or whoever might have replaced us) must migrate to another planet or attempt to get the Earth into a higher orbit if anyone is around at such a late date.
I've been telling my wife this for years. I don't know why we argue about co2, or the whether the oceans are rising or falling. When our sun goes super-nova and vaporizes the planet it won't matter about global warming or climate change or any of that. Our #1 goal should be inter-galactic space travel!
If you break it down to the most simple thinking after the last great ice age there had to be a long period of global warming.
There was no cars, machinery, factories, or fossil fuel being burned so how did the earth manage that without our input?
The kook fringe would have us believe that we can influence nature, we cant even make it rain to stop drought and famine for petes sake.
There was no cars, machinery, factories, or fossil fuel being burned so how did the earth manage that without our input?
The kook fringe would have us believe that we can influence nature, we cant even make it rain to stop drought and famine for petes sake.
Originally Posted By: GreeCguy
Thoughts, opinions, observations?
Regarding CO2, I think a much broader perspective is important to keep in mind. Michael Creighton says it well:
Quote:
"Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
"You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
Think about it.
Nitrogen 78% 780,840ppm
Oxygen _21% 209,460ppm
Argon ___1% ___9,340ppm
.
.
Carbon Dioxide 0.031% 310ppm.
.
.
.
.
Methane 0.0002% 2ppm
Facts are stubborn things and indeed inconvenient truths to those who would distort them for their own political agenda.
Thoughts, opinions, observations?
Regarding CO2, I think a much broader perspective is important to keep in mind. Michael Creighton says it well:
Quote:
"Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon dioxide? One inch.
"You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do you know how much it has increased, on our football field? Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
Think about it.
Nitrogen 78% 780,840ppm
Oxygen _21% 209,460ppm
Argon ___1% ___9,340ppm
.
.
Carbon Dioxide 0.031% 310ppm.
.
.
.
.
Methane 0.0002% 2ppm
Facts are stubborn things and indeed inconvenient truths to those who would distort them for their own political agenda.
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