Climate change - an oil based question.

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Cristobal
It depends on how much carbon in the ecosystem there is, in the form of carbon dioxide. The carbon is all here, in one form or another. Either it is in the air or it is sitting on the shelf, so to speak. CO2 production is balanced out against the forces that sequester carbon, like oil production. There were, it seems, five or six events in the Earth's past (in the Mesozoic) where there was so much CO2 that the average temperature at the North Pole was about 72 degrees Fahrenheit. These were set off by massive volcanic activity and CO2 production. The tipping point is about at 1000 parts per million in the atmosphere.


The current concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is 380ppm, and at the last UN Conference on Climate Change, the activists were lobbying for the UN to set a goal of 350ppm. If the 1000ppm number that you quote as a tipping point for catastrophic global warming is correct, it would seem that the UN's effort is nothing but a scam.

 

[Cristobal]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
It has not happened here yet. But in Europe they have carbon taxes. Pushes the price of already expensive electricity even higher. Also taxes on airline tickets. Just to name two. As I said a scam to fleece the taxpayer.



That is true.

Global warming is not stoppable in the long run. But a lot of people and governments are using as an excuse to live off the fat of the land.

 

[Cristobal]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Cristobal
It depends on how much carbon in the ecosystem there is, in the form of carbon dioxide. The carbon is all here, in one form or another. Either it is in the air or it is sitting on the shelf, so to speak. CO2 production is balanced out against the forces that sequester carbon, like oil production. There were, it seems, five or six events in the Earth's past (in the Mesozoic) where there was so much CO2 that the average temperature at the North Pole was about 72 degrees Fahrenheit. These were set off by massive volcanic activity and CO2 production. The tipping point is about at 1000 parts per million in the atmosphere.


The current concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is 380ppm, and at the last UN Conference on Climate Change, the activists were lobbying for the UN to set a goal of 350ppm. If the 1000ppm number that you quote as a tipping point for catastrophic global warming is correct, it would seem that the UN's effort is nothing but a scam.



I can't help but think "pop pop fizz fizz" like with Alka Seltzer.

It is true that while there is some warming right now caused by humans, we are nowhere near the point where things will go really crazy. That point will be when the peat deposits in places like Siberia start to decay into CO2 and methane. That will really take off at current rates for at least 150 years, and who knows what might change in the meantime?

 

[Danno]

Originally Posted By: Gabe

When people say that the problem doesn't exist or call it a huge scam, they simply don't understand how the system works.


So, pass along some knowledge on how the "system" works so that we can all be educated to the "problem".

 

[Gabe]

Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: Gabe

When people say that the problem doesn't exist or call it a huge scam, they simply don't understand how the system works.


So, pass along some knowledge on how the "system" works so that we can all be educated to the "problem".




Alfonso gets it.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Discussion out in the open is the best thing to defuse this "crisis".

Flatly stated, there is no doubt the climate is indeed changing. No real dispute there at all.

The only contested fact is whether or not mankind is responsible.

Remember that we are but a speck of sand on a very large beach.
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!

 

[rshaw125]

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Global warming is a scam to fleece the taxpayer. When a lot of people figured the scam out they changed the name to climate change.


Trying to deny the problem isn't helping.

When people say that the problem doesn't exist or call it a huge scam, they simply don't understand how the system works.


Sounds like someone drank the Kool-aid.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Discussion out in the open is the best thing to defuse this "crisis".

Flatly stated, there is no doubt the climate is indeed changing. No real dispute there at all.

The only contested fact is whether or not mankind is responsible.

Remember that we are but a speck of sand on a very large beach.
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!


That's my take, albeit with one additional thing: they're not making any more crude oil. It's wonderful stuff, but we're going through it at a good clip. Although we think stupidity is on the rise, it's likely that mankind is going to be around for at least a few more centuries; although I won't be around I'm not sure I'd like to be the one blamed for denying future generations access to cheap energy.

 

[Danno]

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Alfonso gets it.


Alfonso is blowing CO2 out of you know what. He lost the arguement at 1:25 with the CO2 retains heat unsubstantiated claim

This shows CO2 rise follows temp rise.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-temperatures-co2-climate.html

 

[Gabe]

Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Alfonso gets it.


Alfonso is blowing CO2 out of you know what. He lost the arguement at 1:25 with the CO2 retains heat unsubstantiated claim



The CO2 molecule doesn't retain or produces heat by itself. It retains the heat of the Earth by reflecting the radiation that would otherwise be lost into space.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!


I think we also have a natural tendency to overestimate our own understanding of something as complex as the "global environment". There are so many documented cases where humans see a problem, identify in good faith what they believe the solution to that problem is, and execute the solution...only to realize later that although we may have understood part of the system, our implemented solution damaged a different part of the system that we either didn't understand or didn't even know existed.

It is for this reason that I really maintain no opinion on the "global warming" discussion. I think we're naive to believe that we have this figured out.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Global warming is a scam to fleece the taxpayer. When a lot of people figured the scam out they changed the name to climate change.


+100000000000 People are getting super rich promoting this garage. Al Gore is worth over $300MM and lives in an ocean front villa.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!


I think we also have a natural tendency to overestimate our own understanding of something as complex as the "global environment". There are so many documented cases where humans see a problem, identify in good faith what they believe the solution to that problem is, and execute the solution...only to realize later that although we may have understood part of the system, our implemented solution damaged a different part of the system that we either didn't understand or didn't even know existed.

It is for this reason that I really maintain no opinion on the "global warming" discussion. I think we're naive to believe that we have this figured out.


I agree. These scientists think they have a thermostat on the planet that they can simply turn down and all will be well.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Gabe


Trying to deny the problem isn't helping.



Trying to create a "problem" when one doesn't exist is simply foolishness compounded by free grant money.

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Remember that we are but a speck of sand on a very large beach.
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!


We're more like sand flies. Who now have bulldozers available to alter the beach environment.




Strikes me as ironic that the states who get hit the hardest by stronger and more frequent hurricanes and tornadoes are the ones who's populace vehemently disagree that humans can impact the global climate.

Yeah, it could all be a natural cycle. BUT, what if that extra impact the human race is inputting, causes that cycle to swing too far in one direction? We don't have to be the full root cause, but we could push it past the tipping point.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Cristobal

Ironically, some scientists think that about 600 million years from now, so much carbon will wind up sequestered again in the Earth's crust that almost all plant life, and therefore animal life, will be finally extinct.


In a mere 600 million years...but the real question is what will happen to BITOG...will it be Bob is the Carbon Guy

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Remember that we are but a speck of sand on a very large beach.
I think it is a natural tendency for us to overestimate our impact!


We're more like sand flies. Who now have bulldozers available to alter the beach environment.




Strikes me as ironic that the states who get hit the hardest by stronger and more frequent hurricanes and tornadoes are the ones who's populace vehemently disagree that humans can impact the global climate.

Yeah, it could all be a natural cycle. BUT, what if that extra impact the human race is inputting, causes that cycle to swing too far in one direction? We don't have to be the full root cause, but we could push it past the tipping point.


Maybe all of the fruits and nuts on the West Coast will become extinct

 

[expat]

I believe the world is undergoing a change in climate.
(I see Glacial Ice reducing and a reduction of Sea Ice at Northern Latitudes)

I don't know the reason, and I don't think it's something the human race can change (Short term)

I DO see an advantage (worldwide) to become LESS dependent on Fossil Fuels, and adopt more 'sustainable' ways of providing for ourselves.

Regardless, with many 'world issues', 'The cat is out of the Bag'
We have a rough ride ahead of us :-(

 

[Danno]

Originally Posted By: Gabe

The CO2 molecule doesn't retain or produces heat by itself. It retains the heat of the Earth by reflecting the radiation that would otherwise be lost into space.


According to a jimmy hansen paper - you know the former NASA activist - CO2 plays a minor role in GW .. cough .. climate change:

"we argue that rapid warming in recent decades has been driven mainly by non-CO2 greenhouse gases (GHGs), such as chlorofluorocarbons, CH4, and N2O, not by the products of fossil fuel burning, CO2 and aerosols..

If sources of CH4 and O3 precursors were reduced in the future, the change in climate forcing by non-CO2 GHGs in the next 50 years could be near zero. Combined with a reduction of black carbon emissions and plausible success in slowing CO2 emissions, this reduction of non-CO2 GHGs could lead to a decline in the rate of global warming, reducing the danger of dramatic climate change"

http://www.webcitation.org/688csIkJI

 

[Doog]

Right before the 6 mile diameter asteroid hits